April 25th, 2011 
T.C. There is an argument made by some about the current state of the Nationwide Series that I will never understand. It’s this idea that somehow NASCAR and the tracks benefit by having more Cup drivers in the NNS fields. The belief is that more fans will buy a Saturday ticket if Carl Edwards, Brad Keselowski, Dale Earnhardt Jr., Kevin Harvick, and many others are in the field. I’ve never seen any actual data or evidence to back this idea up, and until I do, I’m going to call BS. If you want to see Cup drivers, you buy a Cup ticket. If you want to see NNS drivers, you buy an NNS ticket. If you want to see the Trucks, you buy a Truck ticket. Isn’t that the whole reason we have three different series?
Sirius and MRN’s Dave Moody had a blog post up today about how the points changes for this season have had their intended affect. We currently have a tight battle in the standings among the NNS regulars, and we still have the Cup drivers racing and winning (which is supposedly what ticket sellers want). He also notes that some of these NNS regulars are getting more attention than they have previously. After reading through his piece, I have to say that I would tend to agree with most of his points.
But while I’m not totally against Cup drivers driving in lower series, I do feel that they shouldn’t necessarily be allowed to do it full time. While they may or may not sell more tickets, I think they make it easier for the teams to track down sponsorship dollars. For companies, sponsoring a Cup driver in the Nationwide Series is a win/win proposition. They get the exposure and notoriety of a Cup driver, but for a much lower price.
Selling race tickets is a different situation though.
The whole idea of having lower series is to give more teams and drivers the opportunity to race. They are supposed to be a place for drivers to learn and gain experience, and hopefully earn a chance to move up. And the people who actually buy race tickets know this. They appreciate the series for what they are, and are not looking for Cup lite races.
If the fans only want to see Cup drivers race, than instead of having different series, we should have race weekends where we have three Cup races instead of just one. As our friend and TNI regular Neon suggests regularly, we could do short heat races on Friday and Saturday in advance of a main on Sundays. That way fans could pay less for tickets earlier in the weekend, but still see Cup drivers. And if that’s what the fans really want, than great. But don’t sell something as a developmental series, and then allow it to become that lite version of your top series.
In my own opinion I’d much rather watch a bunch of young and journeymen drivers duke it out, with maybe a scattered Cup driver or two, than watch a “developmental” series where half the field is Cup drivers. Like my title says, if I want to watch Cup drivers, I’ll buy a Cup ticket.
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I don’t think Cup drivers should be able to race FULL time in the lower series. I have always felt this way. I don’t want the truck series or nationwide series anymore because it getting to be full of cup guys. I’m sorry, but I watch you boys race during the cup race, when I watch the other series, I expect to see some up and comers and those regulars run up front, winning races and being dominant, not the cup guys when I can see that during a cup race. I’m not saying they can’t run in them at all, just limit it. I really thought that’s what the new rule would do, but nope its just the points. Oh yeah, that’s gonna help those series.
I understand the sentiment, however, much of the expense of going to a NASCAR race is travel, hotel, food et cetera. If I’m going to a cup race on Sunday, the Nationwide race is a relatively inexpensive add-on. And, I’m more likely to add this onto my weekend race plans if I know that Edward, Kez, & KB and other cup regulars are duking it out for the win… The nationwide series has not been a serious developmental series for years. I just cannot imagine the cup regulars hurting the attendance for these races.
One issue I have with some of the Cup guys running in the lower series is in many cases it isn’t just a Cup guy but a top-level Cup guy who is running for the Sprint Cup Championship. Two of the twelve 2010 Chase drivers drove in every Nationwide race and Kevin Harvick did a majority of the races (but at least he was running for his own team and not his Cup team)… I think there is a place for young Cup drivers to run in the lower series for a year or two to assist them in getting track time but at some point they need to complete the transition.
If they want to let Cup drivers race in the lower levels there should be some type of limitation on number of races or a handicap system (reduce their practice time and the sets of tires they can use, etc.).
I also think there can be some type of exception made if they want to allow Cup Drivers who own their own teams in the lower series to run in more races to help them get their teams going (Kyle @KBM, Harvick @KHI, Junior @JRM).
I’m not buying into the ticket sales myth. I recently watched a Busch Series race from 10 years ago. The race had great attendance and there was only one Cup driver in the field at the. It was Matt Kenseth. I highly doubt many people went to that race to just see Matt Kenseth.
Another thing I see people say is that the young guys can learn from the Cup guys. Really? Learn what? How to get lapped? They couldn’t learn from the veterans of the series? Magic Shoes McLaughlin, the Green brothers, Kenny Wallace. They could probably learn a lot from those guys than Carl Edwards and Kyle Busch.
I’m not entirely against the Cup guys in the lower divisions. But, these guys have completely abused it and, IMO, they’re doing more harm than good.
I can see where this may be true, but as a fan who just discovered NASCAR in the last 4 years, I can tell you that I first started watching the cup drivers and had no interest in NNS until I discovered that some cup drivers drove in it. Now that i’ve gotten to watch NNS enough to know the other drivers, I enjoy it for the series it is. However, I never would have gained the interest in the first place if it hadn’t been for those cup drivers
I totally agree with you. I was wondering if someone would finally right about this subject that I agree with. The way it’s done now makes no sense at all. You know the cup drivers are gonna win, they have better equipment. I can’t blame the sponsors for going the cheap route though. But the bottom line is that the cup drivers belong in the cup series racing each other, not racing against these younger drivers that are not funded as well. The way it is now it’s like David vs. Goliath.
TC – What is your stance on the pit crews for the NNS and NCWTS competitors? I know that you have mentioned that Cup crews are often hired to work the lower series. Should this be eliminated or limited as well. I agree with your stance on there being too many Cup drivers competing on a regular basis in the lower series, I’m just wondering what impact this same practice has in developing young crew members.
Evidence? Given that the Cup drivers you cite all have many more fans than any given lower tier driver (how many people in the stands do you see wearing Hornaday clothing?), it figures that those fans would be far more likely to attend/watch a NNS/Truck race if ‘their’ drivers were in it than they would be to show up and watch some relative nobody race.
Or putting it another way, it isn’t the Cup ‘cars’ that draw many more fans each Sunday than for the lower tier races, it is the Cup ‘drivers’ that draw the fans. You want to boost the attendance at NNS and Truck races? Mandate that every Cup driver participate in some number of those races? Get Johnson and Gordon and Kurt Busch in a truck race? Attendance would be huge (relative to what it would be if they weren’t in it).
I don’t have a favorite Cup driver, but I’m more likely to watch a NNS race if the Cup drivers are in it than I would be if the field was comprised solely of the Steven Wallaces and Ricky Stenhouses.
This doesn’t address the problem of getting young drivers some experience. But that’s a function of the conflict between that goal and the need to have a lot of paying customers in the stands and watching on TV… and I don’t know there is a solution.
I agree completely with what you say; I would also rather see Nationwide regulars competing against each other rather than see race after race dominated by Cup drivers. But I think having the Cup regulars as a selling point for Nationwide races continues to be the dominant mindset, which is unfortunate for a lot of drivers trying to work their way up in NASCAR. A lot of promising careers have been stunted by this problem in recent years
I’d like to see NASCAR limit appearances in Nationwide by established Cup drivers to, say, six races a year. (An established Cup driver being defined as one who has raced full-time in Cup for at least one year). That way, there will still be Cup drivers to boost ticket sales and viewership, but they won’t constitute half the Nationwide field. If a driver loses his Cup ride, or his team runs only a part-time schedule, he is welcome back to Nationwide on a regular basis.
We agree 100%! In fact, I do not think Cup regulars should be in the NNS at all. We used to watch the NNS races, had drivers we liked and watched the up and comers. Now we don’t bother to watch NNS races at all – who wants to watch the Kyle and Carl show over and over and over?
NASCAR knows there is a problem. Otherwise why change the points? The points change accomplished nothing, time to rule them out completely
Tony: As far as the NCWTS is concerned, there are a lot less hired guns then there used to be because of the cap on the number of crew guys. Teams need guys that can fill multiple roles so as not to exceed those limits. There are still certainly some here and there, but I don’t think it’s a big deal.
For the NNS, it certainly happens more. As an example, the majority of the Gibbs pit crews are Cup guys. The Cup drivers that come down to race want the best people servicing their cars, and that’s why you see this happen more. I can’t say I’m really against it happening though, because the pipeline for crew talent is much smaller. Unlike racers or other sports, nobody grows up as a tire changer or jackman. It takes time for guys to learn. If you watched the NNS race at Nashville, you got a glimpse of the gap. Gibbs gave many of their Cup guys the weekend off, and filled the holes on the 18 and 20 with some of their developmental guys. And it showed. Don’t get me wrong though, that’s a tough spot to jump into as a young guy. Logano and Busch were both going to run up front, and these kids were going to be up against the best the NNS has to offer on pit road. No pressure or anything.
I also want to point out that when it comes to developing pit crew talent, the patience that teams have is often a lot smaller than drivers. Teams have less invested in a crew guy, and if it appears he’s not making progress, it’s easy to cut them loose. This is, first and foremost, a performance based business, and if you can’t get it done they will find somebody who can. And often times that means just putting in Cup guys.
AMEN!!!!!!!
All I can say is kudos to ESPN for lots of focus on the Nationwide regulars last weekend. I was totally bummed by Carl and Kyle running the field – and I like both of them! There is something inherently wrong about the Cup guys driving in Nationwide.
Now the truck series I see differently. The Cup guys (Harvick and Kyle) OWN teams in the series and I’ve never really thought of the trucks as being development. I guess there are so many dedicated truck series drivers that I never saw it as “gee, first I’ll drive trucks and maybe someday a Cup car…”. So if Kyle hops in a truck, I figure he owns the team and that’s that.
But I don’t feel like Cup guys should run in Nationwide even if they own the team (like Harvick).
Hard to explain.
Even 6 races a year is far too many. 2 at most.
I thought the idea of Cup drivers moonlighting in NNWS was to draw more fans in the stands and make for higher TV ratings. But 18K fans at Nashville with a Cup-star-loaded field?
What gives?
But I have to confess, I did not even bother to watch the Joe Gibbs/Roush-Fenway/KHI (RCR) Invitational Series race last week. The Carl/Kyle, Kyle/Carl weekly duels for the win reminds me too much of the movie, “Groundhog Day”.
The solution to limit Cup drivers is tough. Some do need development. Some do have sponsors. Some that won’t win a Cup championship (ever) want to win a NNS one. And NNS owners don’t think the money distribution is fair.
Write one simple rule to address all of the above. GO!
“Full-time Cup drivers shall be limited to 7 races in lesser series with the same owner.”
If 7 races is too restrictive, 12 is an acceptable compromise. Tell me why my rule doesn’t work.
I too agree that the Cup regulars are killing the series, and I also believe they are not adding to the ticket sales because everyone knows its Kyle Vs. Carl Vs. Brad, and maybe one other cup driver of the week in contention (Harvick, Logano, ect.)
I also agree that total elimination of Cup drivers from the NNS series isn’t the way to go. The solution is limiting them, in some capacity.
One of the most unique ideas I’ve seen proposed is make them EARN their way into the field. Only allow the Top 3 full time cup drivers in qualifying to make the field, the rest go home. Problem being do you count guys like Trevor Bayne and Joe Nemechek who run heavy cup schedules into this group? And with already short NNS fields, does NASCAR want to send home 4-5 quality teams? Then of course, you will more than likely have those 3 cup drivers still dominating the running order.
The more logical solution is to limit the number of races they can enter, what that number is can be left heavily up to debate as well. I do honestly believe NASCAR wanted to do that in 2010, but when word got out that it was a possibility, Carl Edwards/Jack Roush immediately came out and said we’re running full time in 2011 no matter what. In an odd twist, it seemed the drivers/teams bowed their chest up to NASCAR and NASCAR backed down in some sort of behind-close-doors argument.
Almost every racing series in the world allows its top-tier drivers to race in lower series. There’s only one way to limit the Cup drivers from participating in Nationwide: start the Nationwide race at the same time as qualifying for the Cup series. Can’t be in two places at once, can you?
I would have thought that Carl getting married and having two kids would slow him down and have him focus on Cup. The same goes for Kyle Busch. Obviously it didn’t. What are these guys ‘learning’ in the Nationwide series except how to get an extra paycheck and a trophy.
I would rather go to the Caribbean or Europe for Easter weekend than go to Nashville and race in a second tier series with no Cup race the next day.
perfect world scenario: put the cup drivers in the Nationwide start and park cars.
I’d be entertaining to watch these skilled upper-tiered drivers put their skillz to work.
Yes, I know this will never happen, with contracts and all, but still…
Kyle Busch is winning races that he doesn’t collect any points on. If I were Joe Gibbs, I’d be pissed. He should be first in the Cup points if he’s that good. I don’t think he is that good. He’s great at beating Truck & Nationwide drivers. But his Sprint Cup results should be much better. He had a lousy showing at Talladega against Cup drivers. Notice that Jimmie Johnson concentrates on Cup racing only.
In the internet world what Carl/Kyle (and to a lesser extent Brad) do in NNS is called…SPAM…
Let the record show I like all three of them, but gee whiz guys, do you really think it’s sport given the stables you run out of compared to the regulars?
i have recently stopped buying tickets to the cup races because of expense and have focused my race $$ on — not nationwide — the truck series. at these races, i get to see truly up-n-coming racers combined with veterans of this series who race trucks and love it.
(that is, until young mr busch started encroaching on that series as well, opening the door to his fellow cup divers to “give it a go” as well.)
sure, i enjoy watching cup drivers qualify and practice and used to enjoy watching them race. but i strongly believe they do not belong in the truck and nationwide ranks at all. no limiting the number of races, no denying them points (notice the $$ isn’t taken away?) no exception for owner/racers. just no. stay at the top tier which is, i believe, what they all worked so very hard to achieve.
if folks are using trucks and nationwide as a “poor man’s cup” racing experience and so want to see cup racers at a smaller ticket price, they’re missing the drama and excitement these series can and have provided all on their own, without the cup guys.
i also believe that permitting all these cup guys into the lower-tier series hurts the cup races as well. why pay premium $$ for what is supposed to be the big event of the race weekend if one can see the elite race in the lower series for less? and bottom line: attendance stinks at all levels right now for a wide variety of reasons. why not “fix” this problem now & allow both trucks & nationwide to grow their own loyal base of followers?
I’d like to see some forumula for racing in lower series. For a regular Cup driver, they can race in only half of the weeks of the season in lower series – split however they wish between nationwide & truck. However, a 1st year guy in cup could race in every nationwide event, for experience. It would graduate between every race and half the races depending on years raced at the top level. Say at 6 years in cup is where it hits the 50% mark.
And if they want cup drivers in the cars weekly, they politely ask the cup regulars to split their races such that there are always a handful of cup drivers in every race.
I can’t help but laugh at all the articles this week blasting the Cup guys for being in the minors. It outnumbers heavily the actual coverage of the race. You think someone in Daytona would take notice and make some changes.
The NW series is unwatchable right now and judging by attendance and tv numbers, I’m not alone in this thinking. Something needs to be done to save this series. Before too long nobody will be watching
One other point to add. I’m with the feeling that sponsors will actually increase if the Cup guys were taken out completely. All the sponsors want right now are Cup drivers. If they want a Cup driver, they should pony up the bucks for their Cup ride. the NW guys should have a level playing field for sponsors and I think we would have more on the cars if the Cup guys would just go away since more drivers would have a shot at winning and that’s what the sponsors want.
This is one of the biggest problems facing Nascar, no doubt. Some tweeking to the points changes last year need to be done. The first thing is that some sort of transition from NNS to Cup needs to be addressed. Rookies in Cup should be allowed to run for RotY without earning Cup points. This would allow them a quality rookie class and allow the candidates to run for a Nationwide or Truck championship.
As for Cup drivers dominating NNS and Truck; I am loving knowing who the top NNS drivers are. In previous years they were lost among all the Cup drivers. I think we do need Cup drivers in the NNS races. The NNS are challenged by the Cup drivers and it does increase the competition and increases their skills. There are fans that want to see Cup drivers. I’m guessing this will appeal mostly to the ‘new to racing’ fan. But we need those fans to grow our sport.
I don’t know there is a good answer. If Nascar limits the number of NNS races a Cup driver can enter, I think what will happen is that a greater number of cup drivers will enter NNS races. I don’t JJ will ever enter NNS races, but I think we would see as many as 25 Cup drivers maxing out the number of NNS they can enter. Which means we will still see 5-6 Cup drivers dominating and winning each NNS race.
Good luck to Nascar trying to figure this one out.