After a couple of days of what I’m sure was intense hand wringing and some serious questions, NASCAR announced Wednesday the punishment for Carl Edwards and Brad Keselowski after their last lap melee at Gateway. As I’m sure most of you saw, NASCAR docked Edwards 60 driver points and fined him $25,000 and docked Jack Roush 60 owner points. Both Edwards and Keselowski were placed on probation until the end of the year.
After the announcement Twitter was a buzz with speculation about what this would mean for NASCAR’s ‘boys, have at it’ policy. Many decried this as inconsistency, others said it would have a chilling effect, and still some applauded it.
Wherever you stand on the penalty, I thought the insistence by some that this would kill the new, more open policy was interesting – especially after the intense discussion on the matter leading up to NASCAR’s Wednesday afternoon announcement.
I personally tend to think this penalty won’t have a great affect on the current atmosphere. Certainly I think Carl’s penalty will make guys think twice about paying somebody back on track, but in the heat of the moment I believe we’re still going to see retribution.
Perhaps if this had been the first penalty issued after NASCAR instituted the policy it would have not changed the way things operated. Guys would have seen that NASCAR wasn’t serious about the change. Consider though what NASCAR has allowed drivers to do this season.
Denny Hamlin was wrecked under caution after Clint Bowyer returned to the track – Bowyer got probation. Carl Edwards returned to the track after getting repaired at Atlanta and wrecked Brad Keselowski – Keselowski ended up on his top in the fence and Edwards got parked and put on probation.
Drivers have seen what NASCAR has allowed others to get away with. The key lesson to all of this is, if you have spoken with John Darby, Mike Helton or both already regarding an incident with a fellow competitor and they’ve told you to cool it, you better cool it. If something blatant goes down on track you’re probably going to have a harsher penalty as a result.
Still NASCAR knows what a success this policy has been, and how good the racing has been this season. The last thing they want to do is murder the thing that has helped them get to this point – and I think most drivers know that.
Some More Penalty Thoughts
I think it’s important to remember Carl is a repeat offender – and these two have a long history. Was this weekend’s wreck any more or less blatant than anything anyone else has done this season? I don’t really think so. I do think though at some point NASCAR was going to have to draw a line and say “enough is enough.” This just happened to be the point.
Was it inconsistent? Maybe in the sense that they’ve chosen not to punish offenders quite so harshly this season (Carl among those). It’s unfair to compare this to previous seasons though as NASCAR was operating under a different policy. That said, NASCAR could stand to use some consistency. At times they’re definitely making up penalties as they go.
It hurts the credibility of the sport when the sanctioning body isn’t consistently enforcing things, or drawing clear distinctions ahead of time for what is and is not OK.
I know we and everyone else has spent a lot of time talking about this, this week (and generally we hate to have two posts of similar topics on the same week), but we like to be able to foster and facilitate discussion. Overall I think this week has been interesting in the development of this new doctrine – though I honestly don’t believe anything will change.
Related posts:
- A Serious Test For ‘Boys, Have At It’?
- Precedent Means Nothing To NASCAR
- The Weekend’s Forgotten Storylines
- Payback For Accidental Contact Not Cool
- Self-Policing…I Guess We See How That Worked
Subscribe to the Insiders
Follow the Insiders on Twitter or be a fan on Facebook!
Loading ...
on Jul 22nd, 2010 at 5:37 am
First let me state that as a NASCAR fan, Carl is NOT included in my group fo favorite drivers – that bieng said – WHY THE “H” is KESOLOWSKI BIENG TREATED LIKE A PERFECT LITTLE PRINCESS? He instigates all of these racing incidents – he has the young kyle bush arrogance because of his associations in the sport – ITS RACING – go back and watch all of the races where he has had incidents with seasoned drivers and has been smacked down – he is no better than any of the other drivers out there – why is he not getting the same penalties as the drivers he is tangling with?
BK,KB,JL – these drivers would NOT survive if they had to race against Dale Sr, Bobby Allison, Cale, etc – they would of slapped them and sent them back to the nursery!!!
NASCAR – if you are going to penalize the drivers – hit them both equally, not slap one and hug the other…..
THIS IS WHY MANY NASCAR FANS ARE SPENDING MORE TIME AND $$ ON NHRA!!!
on Jul 22nd, 2010 at 9:37 am
Not a fan of the penalty and I’m more of a BK fan vs CE. Also it seems as not much of a penalty and I thought both were already on “probation”??
I’m still hoping that all the drivers that suffered by being caught up in what Mr Ed said was intentional take their turn at crashing him out. I’m not a real fan of seeing torn up equipment, but if your going to play then at some point it’s time to pay.
on Jul 22nd, 2010 at 9:47 am
This penalty seems fair to me. Carl could have accepted a 2nd place finish, and earned almost as many points as a win, but his ego got in the way of that, now he is down 60 points. I also understand the repeat offender aspect.
Facts be known if NASCAR had not done this, and someone is killed with the “have at it boys” then some people might try to blame NASCAR, so maybe this is a bit of @ss covering on NASCAR’s part, and I have no problem with that.
@ass covering can be a good thing.
I used own some apartments ….. and to cover my @ss, I would always spread ice melt all over apartment sidewalks whenever it snowed …. that way if someone slipped I could say I did what I could to avoid …. and you what? … no one ever slipped …so maybe the @ss covering worked for everyone : )
If you race cars you might die …
if you walk on ice you might slip,
understand the risks and accept responsibility for yourself ….. and …
HAVE AT IT BOYS but dont be freekn idiots
on Jul 22nd, 2010 at 10:02 am
It doesn’t appear that many drivers think much of BK. Seems that he is into it more than should be, given his tenure in Cup racing and the result is that the others don’t cut him much slack. Carl, at least, has paid his dues.
on Jul 22nd, 2010 at 10:06 am
We spent a lot of time discussing last night. I didn’t think any penalties were needed, but I now agree with NASCAR that this was escalating after being warned to tone it down, that neither driver has the skillset or finesse to keep carnage confined to their own equipment, and that dumping for a win- and bragging about it- can’t be tolerated. While I wouldn’t mind their tusseling wrecking the 48 every other Cup race, it absolutely would not be fair. And most of the young drivers in NNS don’t have a chance of weathering such storms, never mind the confined space that made 22 wreck impossible to avoid for ANY driver.
So I would also hope that all the garages understand this reprimand was meant to specifically punish 2 boneheaded drivers, protect them from further idiocy, and NOT to discourage the hard aggressive racing that’s made this season so exciting in all 3 Top Series.
on Jul 22nd, 2010 at 10:35 am
Nascar probation is a total joke. Basically it means “you are a popular driver and we won’t kick you off the track, so we let you do what you want and call it probation”.
It really hurts Nascars credibility whenever they put a driver on “probation” and the driver messes up again and are not punished. Sixty Nationwide points is a joke to Edwards.
Nascar does have a history of suspending drovers from cup events based on Nationwide incidents, just not the “big stars” that being in a lot of money to the sport.
Dear Nascar,
You have become a joke, and I am just about finished with you for good.
on Jul 22nd, 2010 at 10:49 am
Nascar has given a green light that anyone can bump Carl out of the way and he can’t do anything about it.
Remember Brad is the one who has always hit Carl’s car first in every incident.
If someone pushed you out of the way every day in the lunch line would you continue to let them do it, just move behind them on your own or do something about it?
on Jul 22nd, 2010 at 11:32 am
Basically, they took his win away as far as points go. I’m sure that arrogant post race interview and the wrecked cars behind him did not help Carl’s cause. I’m not sure why Brad was put on probation. I just saw that bump as hard racing. I do think the 60 team cares about the points! The $25,000 not so much…
Do I think it’s going to change the way everyone else races? No.
NASCAR’s ruling was a clear message for Carl and his anger problems/ego…not nescessarily everyone else.
on Jul 22nd, 2010 at 11:36 am
Thats NASCAR for you..just a bunch of old dudes making random decisions – each time it could be different.
What Edwards did can be seen on any dirt track on Saturday night, so to me…it’s just part of the sport.
on Jul 22nd, 2010 at 1:15 pm
I think if Carl and Brad had just wrecked each other, NASCAR might have over looked it.
However, they got half the field involved and wrecked a lot of cars having their temper tantrum.
Therefore, they had to do something, regardless.
It’s pretty light I think, but when they collide again, what will NASCAR do then?
-W
on Jul 22nd, 2010 at 1:47 pm
I don’t believe “have at it boys” ever meant intentionally wrecking someone on a straightaway with two walls. That’s just obviously dangerous to the driver and everyone behind them.
If he pushed him out of the way safely- even if Brad then lost control and spun out in the grass- it would be fine with me.
on Jul 22nd, 2010 at 2:33 pm
To me this was a decent response by NASCAR except that they should have gone after BK more than they did.
This issue is not difficult at all. Jimmy Johnson and Kurt Busch showed us a few weeks ago what “have at it boys” is for two of the very best closed wheel drivers in the world. Nobody wrecked, even the causal fan easily recognized the brilliance of these two on the track, and everyone saw probably the most exciting final laps of the season so far. And no trash talking after the race from either of them. The entire thing was exactly what you’d expect from the very best in the world.
Now compare this to the tantrums of CE and the misguided conviction of BK that “fans want to see crashes”…
Once again I’ll ask the educated fan: would you rather see the brilliance of Busch and Johnson or the stupidity of Carl and Brad?
I’ll just add that if I want to see crashes I know where to go for that and I’ll buy tickets to the dirt tracks. There is a reason that those tickets are so much cheaper you know…
on Jul 22nd, 2010 at 3:22 pm
If nothing else I would expect NASCAR has sent a clear message that when they tell you face-to-face that there is a line and not to cross it, you better ask if you don’t understand.
Also, Carl has wrecked Brad twice intentionally without Brad’s being hurt. You can only go to the well so many times before your luck runs out – and it appears that Carl doesn’t consider the possible results of his actions before he acts.
on Jul 22nd, 2010 at 3:30 pm
IMHO the “Have at it boys” was an open invitation for a bump and run, and some aggressive driving, some rubbing. It was NOT and open invitation to intentionally wreck another car into a wall just because you want to.
IMHO a true bump and run loosens up the car in front of you and allows you to move past them. If you put their car into the wall, damage to other cars or not, is NOT a bump and run. BK did a classic bump and run (same are JJ and Kurt B a couple of weeks back) that is racing.
After intentionally wrecking another car, and unintentionally taking out a good portion of the remaining field is NOT the time to brag about it on national TV! That is just plain STUPID.
I think NASCAR is trying to be as consistent as they can. Every situation is different with a whole slue of different variables, and I’m not talking about them play favorites. I would not want to be the person trying to figure out if a driver should be penalized, for what reason, and how much of a penalty.
As for probation, I’m not sure if probation in one serious carries over to another series. Even if it does Carl was on probation from the last time for something like 6 weeks, which would have been up a couple of month ago. Unless he is on another probation, which is possible, I think he was in the clear. That however does not mean you can not go out and intentionally wreck someone, and expect nothing to happen.
I’m all for NASCAR to be pickier / less lenient on repeat offenders. Carl has showed IMHO for years that he is a repeat offender on playing dirty / wrecking other cars. The more I watch him race the more I do not like his overly aggressive racing style and his bullying on and off the track. I hate to admit it, but at first I kind of liked him, he was in my top 10. The last few years he has been closer to the bottom of my list and dropping like the rock.
on Jul 22nd, 2010 at 8:38 pm
MS said….
“I’ll ask the educated fan: would you rather see the brilliance of Busch and Johnson or the stupidity of Carl and Brad?”
Is this an open book test?
jk
will there be dates on it ?
ok ok …YOU ARE CORRECT SIR ….
I want to see the brilliance of Busch and Johnson
—————————————–
Ric said…
“Carl was on probation from the last time for something like 6 weeks, which would have been up a couple of month ago. Unless he is on another probation, which is possible”
I was looking for youtube “Animal House” clip of Dean Wormer’s “Double secret probation” speech, but all I could find was this guy, and he is actually funnier(to me anyway; ) ( btw-I do not know him, I am not promoting him, I am not associated with him in any way, but I may have seen him and/or his brother at some NASCAR races before) gotta luv youtube…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf2kdjLTdVk