July 13th, 2010 
Journo Is the Chase not good enough for the Nationwide and Truck Series, or are the Nationwide and Truck Series not good enough for the Chase?
As NASCAR tries to fix what probably doesn’t need to be fixed, I’ve got wonder how long it’s going to take them to start applying the points changes (that is the six year old changes) to their two other series.
I know, for many of you, the Chase is a sore subject – and you would just as soon see them get rid of it than see it expanded. No matter your feelings though, doesn’t having two different systems to determine champions throughout the sport undermine the legitimacy of the most contested points system?
I won’t get into NASCAR making changes to the Chase (for the record I think it’s a bad idea – and feel free to discuss it), but I do believe there needs to be uniformity across the series in how a champion is crowned.
In one breath NASCAR is saying the Chase is a great way to determine a champion (though apparently not great enough), and then in the other (though not directly) acknowledging the strength of the old system by allowing it to continue in two of its three national series. Hence the undermining.
I get we’re supposed to have three distinct and unique series. Despite those differences though, and the individual strengths of each of the series, I firmly believe NASCAR needs to administer all three as similarly as possible. If one has a Chase, they should all have a Chase.
On top of that, I think it serves its purpose well enough. We get better fights at the end of the season – and more often than not the best driver does win. So why can’t this work in the Truck and Nationwide Series?
I know it’s not a big thing, but I want a sport that functions like a cohesive unit – not like three stand alone bodies. It may, or may not bother you that NASCAR doesn’t use a uniform system across all three of its series, but it kind of bothers me.
What do you think? Is uniformity in the points necessary across all three series? Would you like to see the Chase be the points system across the sport?
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I was sorta for the Chase when it started… I thought I’d give it a go. It made for the last race of the first Chase season kinda interesting. That’s the one Kurt Bucsh won… where he lost his wheel and all that… I always thought that was a nice touch(sorry, black helicopters comment – hah!).
Since then tho’, instead of the racing that is going on, on track… the talking heads wanna talk about the Chase scenarios.
Like we care? Talk about that stuff after the race…
I’m over the Chase, myself. I know they won’t get rid of it, but it doesn’t do anything for me… and I’m just sick of it. Especially the track selections of the last ten races, ho-hum.
-W
Uniformity…..just don’t see that happening. – I would love to see LESS Nationwide races, and MORE Truck races!!!!
NASCAR is already in the grey area of bieng too corporate for its own good! Many people that have been in the sport for years are now leaving it to go to other forms of Motorsports.
How quickly dollar signs make tradition and family values go out the door………but thats a whole other subject!!!!!!!!!!
I agree, but even more so the Chase undermines itself. When it’s constantly tweaked, it removes some legitimacy of was was accepted the previous year. The Chase rules are like a special paint scheme. How will the wrap it next year?
Honestly I believe the Chase needs to go altogether. It takes championships away from drivers. The Chase has taken Championships away from Carl Edwards-2008 and Tony Stewart-2009. Now those are the only two I remember. Also guess who won those “Championships”? Jimmie Johnson. Another reason I hate him. However, I am NOT saying NASCAR gave Jimmie those “Championships”. Another point. If NASCAR puts the chase in the Nationwide series Kyle Busch would win every year. And he wouldnt even have to run the whole season. If Kyle wins 6 races each year and no one else does it puts him at the top of the standings and he didnt even earn it! Just pointing that out.
Drop the chase.
Let’s see, here we within a few weeks from starting the 2010 Chase and Brian’s boys are already talking about “fixing” the Chase in 2011? Doesn’t that tell the fans, sponsors and TV partners that even NASCAR’s leaders think the 2010 Chase is semi-farcial? Why don’t they keep quiet and see how this year’s Chase goes?
That said, NASCAR will never be able to synthesize a repeat of the famous 1992 Winston Cup Championship battle between Alan Kulwicki, Bill Elliott and Davey Allison using the Chase format.
Don’t “Chase” the other series. Please.
I’ve seen another Kevin or two posting comments recently so I thought I would distinguish myself.
I wrote a blog post on another site about a month ago detailing why I think the chase, similar to late-race cautions, actually makes things less exciting and dramatic. If it’s okay to post a link to it on this site, here are my thoughts: http://www.racing-reference.info/showblog?id=383
I sincerely hope NASCAR gets rid of it altogether. I don’t actually think that will happen, but I’m an optimistic kinda person, so I keep hoping. I also agree with the overall point of this article that there should be uniformity, but we all know how well NASCAR does in that area.
But among all the debates about whether to chase or not to chase, I find one thing quite amusing: Apart from minor increases to the points paid to the winner, we still use a point system that was designed some 40 years ago on a napkin in a bar (at least I think that’s how the story goes). Why hasn’t NASCAR ever thought about completely redoing the point system itself? If done right, that’s a good way to improve the point battle without doing something artificial like the chase. Series like the IRL have drastically different point systems and they had a very close battle down to the final race last year (as they often do, I believe). As usual, I think NASCAR is trying to “fix” all the wrong things.
Kevin: As long as it’s a relevant link, it’s always okay to post them here. There is nothing wrong with a little shameless self promotion!
If I were in charge, I’d call The Chase a failed experiment and go back to the 2003 points system. IMO this experimentation is why it hasn’t been applied to the other 2 Top Series.
If NASCAR is finally committed, however, then yes it needs to be applied to all Top Series once the following changes have been made: Points leader at the end of Chase qualifying should get a bonus. Wins during the 1st 26 races should get more regular (not bonus) points. 10 drivers should be Chasing not 12. And finally, tracks in The Chase should be rotated. What other sport has their finale at the same place every year? Spread the wealth.
Thanks T.C.! I love how you and Journo seem so level-headed about things like that, unlike my local newspaper which is completely paranoid about any competition even if it’s not really competition.
Here’s another idea: Don’t reset the points, just make the last 10 or so races worth more points. Double the current points system or add 100 points to every position. That would make races toward the end of the season count more and make it more likely that we would see wilder points swings, but it wouldn’t discount the first 26 races. I still believe all races should count equally, but something like this could be a good compromise between the two sides.
The Chase should be abandoned and the champion should be determined by the full year’s races.
Two things:
First, I agree that the three series should have a *very* similar format for determining the points champions.
Second, after hearing many of the arguments about how the Chase should be formatted (or whether to even have one), I am inclined to think a Chase of some sort is good for the sport, but totally agree with those that see it as completely essential to put it all in the hands of the teams, and not just some of the teams but all of the teams.
So how to do it?
In my mind, you keep things simple, fair and easy to understand for both teams and fans. To me the solution is as simple as awarding points on an asymetric basis during the Chase. No resetting of points, no elimination of drivers, just have a Chase where points awards are more skewed to the top positions.
During the ‘regular season’ you could award points just as today which is mostly a linear affair with a bit of a premium for 1st where we have (approximately) 190 for 1st, 175 for 2nd, 170 for 3rd, 165 for 4th and so on and a smattering of bonuses. But for the Chase, you could award on an exponential scale, so it might be 220 for 1st, 200 for second, 190 for 3rd, 185 for 4th and so on, plus maybe hike up the bonuses.
It would create a real “Chase” atmoshphere since its a clear line in the sand where things are now different, allowing anyone to get hot at the right time and make big moves in the points, yet also rewards the regular season since those points would carry over as-is.
It would put a larger premium on wins during the Chase while diminishing the urge to ‘points race’. And trust me, nobody but Harvick is going to be thrilled if he wins the Chase with only 2 victories and guys like Hamlin and Johnson with however many wins they end up with finish behind him in points.
Plus there are all sorts of tweaks you could do to this system without fundamentally altering it by simply changing the way the asymetery works, such as heavily weight the top 3 places and let the rest stay as-is or make the scale be asymetric across all positions and add decimal points (which would reduce the points spreads between the lower positions which to me is also something you want to do during the Chase), or any number of other schemes.
So to me, doing this would keep a lot more drivers within striking distance deep into the Chase while clearly rewarding those drivers that actually do strike. It puts it all in the drivers hands since they could tuble as rapidly as rise, it rewards the regular season, it doesn’t have an artificial cutoff that eliminates good teams before the end of the season.
This isn’t football and its not baseball or basketball, its racing. So we need a system that makes sense for racing, not a system that is trying to mimic features of the ball sports. To me, this would be a system that would meet the objectives, would be very easy to understand, and would be a ‘racing’ solution as opposed to a mimic of some other sport.
All just my opinion of course
Kevin in Martinsville: I’m a fan of the Chase, but that idea of making the points in the final 10 (or whatever) races of higher value is an excellent idea! Kudos. I’d never heard that idea expressed before, and never thought of it myself.
That may indeed be the idea that makes everyone happy (OK, its NASCAR- you’ll never make everyone happy.)
I’d even go as far as saying the last 10 races should have triple points value. Or maybe double for 5 races, triple for the final 5.
Not only would we see great points swings… you’d have that possibility of an underdog in 15th place making a wild run for it.
IMHO lets worry less about making the Nationwide series conform to a Cup playoff and concentrate on creating a competitive field of “potential” rising super stars. I enjoy seeing the likes of KB, BK, CE, JL, RN, JR and RN race cars….but keep them to a Cup level. Dbl dippin is just too easy!
If you must have a “chase” in any series, at least make it a knockout format!
The chase needs to go and a point system that rewards for winning needs to be put into place.
A playoff system like we have is a joke, a team can run well but not win, get in the chase and then push for the last 10 races to win the championship.
Several good comments above. Like Woogeroo, I am an opponent of the chase, but have learned to live with it. I just want to see 36 enjoyable races.
My own preference is for a 100% consistency-based system: 43 for 1st, 42 for 2nd, 41 for 3rd, then add them up at the end of the year. That is what is known as an OBjective system. The current system is SUBjective. Who does a win get 190 points? Why not 147? 2,361? 12? Why is there a 5-point differential up front, then 4, then 3? Why not 12-8-2? 6-4-2? Unless you go with the notion that “most wins = champion,” there’s going to be points racing, and “most wins = champion” says that a guy with three wins and 10 DNFs takes the title over a guy with 2 wins and no DNFs.
But in the end, the champion is whatever driver or team wins under the rules then in effect. Benny Parsons’ Cup is worth every bit as much as any of Dale Earnhardt’s Cups or Kurt Busch’s or Lee Petty’s.
And who says it has to go down to the wire every year? Does every football game go to overtime? Does every baseball game go down to 2 out, bottom of the ninth, tying run on 3rd? If that’s what you want, have a 20-lap trophy dash for the top 10 an hour after the checkers fall at Homestead.
Kevin in Martinsville: you’re right – there are lots and lots of ideas that we could play with here. Who says all 43 have to earn points? Who says anyone leading a single lap gets points? Who says only one guy gets the “most laps” points? Why not bonus points for leading 10% of the laps, more for 20% etc? Yeah, there’s lots of things we can talk about. BUT PLEASE, NO POINTS FOR POLES!!!
Just give me 36 fun races. Maybe lessen the prize for the championship and bump the race purses.
My feeling is that the reason they don’t use the Chase in the other series is because if they did, one of the other 2 series (NW and Trucks) may overshadow the Cup series “playoffs” at the end of the year if they have a close battle and the Cup series is not so close. The Cup series is their big show and they don’t want anything preventing it from being such.
Love the ideas about the Chase so I will add my 2 cents worth. No Chase, No Elimination. Just 36 races to determine the champion. The only difference would be I would set up my point standings to mimick golfs Fed Ex Cup points system. No this is not a typo. They award heavily for the Top 3, then drastically drop off for the remainder of the field. Nascar should follow this except award no points after 25th place each race. Several reasons for this. You would not need a chase. You would not need the Top 35 rule (43 fastest or go home), Teams could skip races and not have it hurt them in the standings. The schedule could be expanded because teams wouldn’t have to race in all of them. Yes I think outside the box a bit.
In the grand scheme of things, the racing itself is more important to me than who wins the championship. Show people a good race every Sunday and people will watch, regardless of who wins the championship
Christopher: Thank you!
I’m very mathematical, so that’s probably why I got that idea.