March 11th, 2010 
T.C. I’ve been following the Carl Edwards/Brad Keselowski reaction all week, because I was curious how everyone would respond to the incident. Between Twitter, forums, blog comments, and the writers, I’ve read a lot. Journo weighed in on the topic here on Monday. Some folks have made some really great points, and I can understand most sides of the controversy. What I don’t understand, is those that think this decision by NASCAR is going to somehow turn the drivers into wreck ‘em derby maniacs who now won’t fear the consequences.
This idea that somehow some horrible precedent has now been set in terms of how NASCAR will govern the on track action just isn’t true. The sport’s leadership handles these special situations on a case-by-case basis, and will dole out penalties accordingly. They actually handled this specific incident very similarly to how they’ve handled other recent retaliation situations.
In this country, many courts of law decide cases by precedent. Past decisions do affect how future cases are decided. But guess what? NASCAR isn’t a court of law. They don’t need to take past decisions into account when they are trying to figure out penalties for a special situation. Why? Because absolute consistency isn’t necessarily needed. When Denny Hamlin wrecked Keselowski at Homestead, a one lap penalty was sufficient because Hamlin did what he came to do and NASCAR couldn’t let him get away with it. At Atlanta, Edwards was obviously furious, and he needed to be parked for his own good.
I understand that before the season started, they basically told the drivers to “have at it.” And while this may have played a role in their decision making, they actually went harder on Edwards then they did on Hamlin and Juan Pablo Montoya at Homestead last season; and those wrecks happened before they changed their stance. So trying to say that NASCAR went easy on Edwards because of this new philosophy just doesn’t hold water.
When issues like this arise, it always seems like we hear somebody say that NASCAR needs to lay out a penalty schedule so that every infraction is dealt the same penalty. Well guess what? Just like every other sport, NASCAR penalizes the regular infractions the same all the time. Unapproved adjustments, engine changes, pit road speeding, and a ton of other infractions are dealt with the same way.
But in special situations, like the one we saw in Atlanta, NASCAR must decide penalties on a case-by-case basis. Why? Because there are too many factors that go into what went down, and there is no way for the sanctioning body to be prepared for every possible dust-up. We’ve seen NFL commissioner Roger Goodell handle many different player incidents all separately, and I don’t see anyone calling for his job.
Moving forward, you aren’t going to see drivers wrecking each other and going crazy because Carl Edwards wasn’t suspended for life. There will be no “vigilante justice,” as one writer suggested. Drivers know NASCAR is in charge and that they will rule on events as they see fit. The powers that be have shown plenty of times in the past that if they feel a situation has become out of control, they will step in with harsh penalties to send a message.
As I’ve said before, if Keselowski spins harmlessly through the tri-oval grass, we are never having these discussions. There would be talk about how Keselowski got what was coming to him, and how Edwards overreacted to a racing incident. Endless discussions of precedents and rules and governance would have never entered anyone’s minds.
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I am all for Nascar handling incidents on a “case by case” basis. My problem with Nascar is when the severity of the punishment depends on “who” the driver is.
Lets look back to the Carl Long engine deal last year. If it had been Tony Stewart the punishment would not have been so severe.
Robby Gordon at Montreal. Nascar was TOTALLY WRONG, yet they still suspended him from the cup race the next day.
Waltrip shows up at Daytona with jet fuel in his engine. He was not parked.
As for the punishment for Edwards. I am OK with what happened. Historically when a driver is out for revenge and driving to aggressive they are pulled off the track. I do believe if the 12 did not flip this never would have been and issue.
Problem is, I truly believe if it had been a lower tier driver that beings in a lot less money for the sport the punishment would have been very harsh, and very expensive.
“Precedent means nothing to NASCAR” and therein lies the issue because it means everything to fans. Most of us have our views on what’s right or what’s wrong. What should be penalized and for how much and what shouldn’t.
However most of us are willing to accept whatever rules are put in place as long as their application is uniform which means precedents must be established. Do you realize how it looks when Robby Gordon gets penalized for something but Carl Edwards doesn’t? That is what NASCAR should be most worried about from not just faithful fans but also the eyes of the outside sporting world. For when Robby gets a penalty and Carl doesn’t it looks like someone is being paid off – whether directly or via sponsorships. The law needs to apply to everyone eqaully. If I get caught speeding I can accept getting a ticket for $40 and 1 point as long as the next guy that does the same thing gets the same penalty. If he doesn’t then we have a problem.
So if Carl can get away with what he did with a 3 race probation as the penalty then any other driver that purposely exacts revenge on another driver can not and should not be punished. Fairness is at the very center of our societies expectation of law enforcement and that applies to sports as well.
So I ask you, what does a driver have to do to get suspended or points taken away? For anyone that thinks precedence doesn’t matter they don’t realize that the validity of the sport is largely determined by applying a standard set of rules based on written laws and the application of precedence.
We need to stop comparing Robby Gordon’s problem at Montreal a few years back to this most recent incident with Carl Edwards. Edwards wrecked Keselowski, NASCAR told him he was parked, and that was it. Robby got turned at Montreal, refused to line up in his correct position when told to do so by NASCAR officials, had his score card pulled, then took the restart in second place, turned Ambrose, and then did a burnout once the race was over. So not only did Gordon wreck Ambrose, he refused to listen to officials and mocked them at the same time. That is absolutely unacceptable, and he got what he deserved.
And I still refuse to believe what many of you claim about NASCAR penalizing the “lower” drivers. If NASCAR doesn’t penalize harshly those that bring money and sponsorships to the sport, somebody please explain to me how Dale Jr. was fined AND lost points over saying a curse word on television?
What I don’t get is the idea that Brad had it coming. From all the incidents I’ve seen Brad has been guilty of holding his line and in some cases not lifting to “let” another driver pass. I thought it was racing and the goal was to finish in front of everyone else? In the Atlanta deal it actually looked as if he lifted becaues he was almost rear ended by another car. In contrast, I’ve seen Carl drive aggressively, cause a wreck, and then put on his big stupid Mr Ed grin and shift into the Cuz aw shucks mode. And yes it seems to me that Jack usually has less severe penalties passed his way than some of the other owners. My take, Carl would not finish a race the rest of the season. That would be my mission.
Dale Jr’s fine for the S word was necessitated because the issue went outside the bounds of NASCAR and crossed over into the real world. The last thing NASCAR needed is to have the FCC thinking that they weren’t trying to control what went out over the airwaves. They had to make it look like they took it seriously. Plus that was right after the famous Superbowl breast seen round the world.
How convenient that you want to stop using Robby’s example as a comparison. Wasn’t Carl driving the wrong way down pit road a form of giving NASCAR the finger? If you don’t think sponsorship dollars play a role in penalties then you are blind to reality. It’s always harder to bite the hand the feeds.
So Edwards driving up pit road the wrong way wasn’t considered defiance like Robby Gordon refusing to listen to officials. I’m still not convinced that NASCAR doesn’t favor the drivers and teams who bring in the big bucks from sponsors. Especially sponsors who advertise during races.
NASCAR has become the WWF on wheels. They make up the rules as they go along. I am afraid that last Sundy only enforced the casual fan’s perception that ‘NASCAR is not a real sport.” I agree with Rick entirely. Great post, you hit the nail on the head. I think the final outcome will be a lot more people for whom Brad flew under the radar will see that he is a very talanted, hungry driver. I think they will also see Mr Edwards for the thugish bully that he is. Looking foreward to the boos that Edwards gets at driver’s intros at Bristol.
Your saying “Drivers know NASCAR is in charge and that they will rule on events as they see fit” sends chills up my back. Nascar reminds me of parents who never set certain parameters for their children and then are amazed when those same children grow up to be thugs.
T.C. I agree with you, case-by case. I find it ironic that NASCAR bashing has become a national past time. If you let the guys be aggressive then this group gets upset… if you make it vanilla.. the other group gets upset. The media wants to sell ad space so they like to get everyone upset…
Let’em race, I miss the days of “pass in the grass” and the excitement of rivalries. If I remember exactly the grandstands were full back then.
Bill: Dale Jr. wasn’t only fined, he was also penalized 25 points. I understand the circumstances, but harming a driver on track seems a bit harsh for one spoken word.
And explain to me how Carl driving backwards for a short section on pit road is the same as Robby’s antics at Montreal? I work on pit road every week, and I honestly didn’t think it was as big a deal as some are making it out to be. Pit road was closed, and it wasn’t like he was driving through everyone’s pit stalls.
And everyone always points to this sponsorship and driver status affect penalties like its fact, but nobody has any hard evidence to back it up.
TC
“And everyone always points to this sponsorship and driver status affect penalties like its fact, but nobody has any hard evidence to back it up.”
That’s because it can’t be proven because organizations like NASCAR don’t answer to anyone which is exactly why you need to establish rules and precedents for penalties. If the NFL was ran like NASCAR some the penalty for holding or pass interference would be variable.
Yes, I think we all get it…NASCAR punished the intent not the result. Okay..I have a few problems
“Boys, have at it” What does that mean??? I took it to mean real, heavy duty racing..like someone actually challenging the 48 team instead of tip toeing around him because he’s in the chase? And not caring if Chad gets mad? RACING!!! Carl wasn’t racing..and that’s why NASCAR parked him.
But Carl has a history of pulling dangerous revenge stuff ON the track. He obviously doesn’t get it…I would have suspended him for one race.
Is this going to set a bad precedent? Are we going to see NASCAR’s version of demolition derby? No. Most drivers are smarter and saner than that…but I do think they will “test the water” and see what happens.
Okay, I think I see the black helicopter over my house. There was no way NASCAR was going to suspend Carl for the Scotts Turf Builder 300 next week. (Sorry T.C.) No way. Not with sponsorship at a premium in this tough economy. Carl (not Erik Darnell) is the Scotts driver and he was going to be in that car.
Now let me go check on my still and the aliens in the basement.
Bill: You continue to confuse everyday infractions with special situations. NASCAR handles it’s “holding” and “pass interference” penalties the same way all the time. If you would have read my post, you would have seen that I mentioned that. And if it cannot be proven that NASCAR favors the big names, what is the point in talking about it?
T.C.
That last comment is illogical. Just because something can’t be proven doesn’t mean it should be discussed.
Can you prove there is a God? Then why talk about it. And with that in mind the debate on stem cells, abortion and many other ethical issues disappear.
Good try though,
Bill: The point was, is that fans get upset over what they perceive to be as bias towards certain drivers. They get very angry about it, yet cannot point to any evidence nor fact that proves that what they are saying actually exists. I am all for discussions, but when they are based around conspiracy theories and the presence of “black helicopters” I don’t see a point.
Here is my issue with this, he came out 153laps down to wreck him. so for over 1hr he thought this out, locked in his mind to wreck a driver.
Nascar does seem to show variance in punishment to certain drivers, or organizations.
Case in points
Carl Long. Not that his engine was illegal, but he got inspected after his engine blew up in practice. It was purchased engine, and the engine builder stated that the walls distorted from the damage.
at Daytona a few years back a piece of tap came of the inner RR fender well of the 17 during qualifying. 6 race suspension for the crew chief iirc.
then in the 125′s(same year) J Gordon’s spring mount “wore” it was determined that this happened on the track and was not a performance enhancing trick. result no penalty
If I remember correctly Mark Martin won at Charlotte one year and his car was to low on the LF. the spring failed during the race, and dropping weight of the LF is a no-no(or at least on any car I worked on) result was fine,loss of points iirc.
3 “infractions” that happened during race/qualifying conditions non would help the car. 3 different penalties or lack there of.
the 99 went out 153 laps down with the sole intent of wrecking the 12. that is not “have at it” or “just racing” flip or no flip, a bit more than a shake of the finger was warrented.
T.C. I respect you and your opinions, however when you say “where’s the evidence” just take a look back through Nascar history. Their is a history of Nascar looking out for the big name drivers and crapping on the little guys.
Can you seriously tell me that Michael Waltrip and his jet fuel engine at Daytona wa not a WAY worse and intentional infraction than Carl Long’s engine being a little bit to big, and as I recall it was proven not to be an advantage in any way.
Now lets talk a look at the fines. Waltrip’s crew chief was fined $100,000 and Michael was fines 100 points.
Carl Long’s crew chief was fined $200,000. Long was penalized 200 points and suspended for the next 12 races.
The proof is everywhere. You just have to be willing to look at it.
Nice post TC. This week has been fun. I agree, to a point, that incidents are case-by-case. I also agree that BK actually getting airborne made for more conversation then would have been otherwise.
But really that’s where I have a beef. BK getting airborne was really irrelevant in my book. What “is” relavant is that Cousin Carl tries to block BK, or jump into the inside lane between 1 and 2 early in the race. Which ever motive you choose to believe, the bottom line is Cousin Carl plain and simple screwed up. A rookie move by a self-proclaimed veteran. Unfortunately, CE ruined Lagano’s day and no one seems to be discussing that.
Then, then…rather than CE accepting his own mistake in it’s entirety he decides to stink up the show by taking out someone who, by his own admission on TV, “didn’t actually make as malicious of a move as he first thought.”
So what am I missing here? Carl seeks revenge on BK for an ill-timed move that was of his own making? Hmmmm?
If I am “any” member of the #99 camp and Carl is half as approachable as appears to be, I go to Carl and say “dude, let’s talk for a minute. Ok I work for Roush Fenway, just like you and 500 of our co-workers do. We are trying to win races here and possibly a championship. If “we” do that, “you” will get a big ol trophy and a bunch of loot. The rest of us will get a nice bonus to feed our families and the satisfaction of a job well done. Now on the other hand, if you go out and trash our equipment, plough into everyone and everything that you feel has wronged you, well Dude…we get nothing but a big ol wad of squat. Now Carl get with the game and drive and act like a professional.”
TC-If you happen to be on the #99 crew, can you have this chat w/ Carl? If so, I suspect he will get back to his winnings ways pretty quick. Thanks in advance.
BTW Robby’s Montreal gig was really stupid, but comical none the less. At least Robby didn’t have 2 hrs in the garage area to cool off before pulling his stunt. Robby’s was textbook “red mist”, Carl’s was premeditated. Which one is worse?
Time for me to move on. F1 is on the horizon!
Bobby- This idea is completely ridiculous. You say there is “a history of evidence” and only point to the Carl Long incident. A history of evidence? NASCAR has said through the last few years that they would be ramping up penalties for things that have always been off limits (fuel, tires, engine) and that’s exactly what they did. An engine being a “little bit too big” is a huge deal. If this had been any other team you and every other person would have screaming. Because it’s underfunded Carl Long, it’s a big conspiracy. This situation we find ourselves in right now, just like the Carl Long incident, is yet another example of people being blinded by their allegiances. (As a disclaimer, I know I mentioned Carl Long here, but this is not going to turn into a Carl Long forum; remember off topic comments will be deleted).
Bill- You had a lot of responses, but really never answered any of the questions thrown back at you. It’s easy to talk around things isn’t it?
Journo, I guess I should have offered a few more examples. I am not trying to change the topic, just trying to make a point.
How about Dale Jr. passing Kenseth under the yellow line at Talladega going for the win and a record 5 straight at the track. Nascar ignored it, he won. Few years later Regan Smith does the same thing and crosses the line first, Nascar declares Tony Stewart the winner.
Richmond late 90′s getting ready to go green. Dale Sr radios in with a flat time, Nascar holds yellow for a few more laps so go does not go in under green.
Once again, the history is there, just look for it. It’s a long list, these are just a few examples.
Bobby- Jr. doesn’t have five straight at Talladega, he has four straight. The incident you bring up occurred in 2003 and NASCAR maintained Jr. had already taken the spot before he went below the yellow line and therefore did not improve his position. Check out the video, it was very close. At the end of the day, like any other sport, NASCAR is there to officiate and that’s what they did. Sometimes we agree with the decisions, sometimes we don’t. In the case of Regan Smith though he very clearly crossed the yellow and improved his position. There is room for discussion in one incident, and not in the other. This is not at all proof that NASCAR favors anyone.
I can’t say I’m familiar with the Dale Sr. incident but do you have proof NASCAR held the yellow for a few more laps, or is that just speculation?
I still don’t see a history of incidents. I see people who are letting their allegiances cloud their judgement of situations.
Journo, a buddy of mine was at that Richmond race listening on a scanner. Dale Sr. called in he had a tire going down and pulled out of line to pit. Nascar waved off the green and gave no reason for doing so. I was and still am a HUGE Dale Sr. fan, so this was fine with me. When it comes down to it, Nascar fans are all hypocrites.
I am not really a fan of Edwards, but I believe Nascar got the punishment right. If it had been Johnson or Kyle Busch that wrecked the 12 I’d have been screaming for them to be suspended for life. We are all hypocrites, I just admit that I am.
Sr. had more pull with the powers that be than any other driver of his time. remember at Indy when they black flagged him for the lug nut? its still the only time I know of when nascar admitted a mistake and stopped a race to try to correct it.
the argument for the MW and CL engine penalties doesn’t really work for you, they happened in relative close time periods. we aren’t talking about 1984 when the kings engine was big at the 400(like huge,377ci iirc)
but there is a distinct difference, the jet fuel was a power ‘adder’ vs cubic inches which is add-on vs internal.
the two passes below the line are an interesting comparison. both have video, only in DR’s case even TS admitted he drove him down there and that DR had position. where as in Jr’s case I do not recall MK saying anything of the sort.
I’m interested with where this will go from here, as far as pay backs. if it’s ok now to sit for 1-2hrs then go and wreck a top 10 car, where exactly is the line?
Bobby- hahaha. I wouldn’t call NASCAR fans hypocrites, it’s just the nature of sports that people let their allegiances color their opinions of things. While I certainly don’t agree with everything NASCAR does, I don’t believe there is some conspiracy to help funded drivers over unfunded drivers.