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	<title>Comments on: Self-Policing&#8230;I Guess We See How That Worked</title>
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		<title>By: Woogeroo</title>
		<link>http://www.thenascarinsiders.com/2010/03/08/self-policing-i-guess-we-see-how-that-worked/comment-page-1/#comment-24935</link>
		<dc:creator>Woogeroo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 15:49:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thenascarinsiders.com/?p=2667#comment-24935</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s nice to see some gumption back in the Cup series. 

I&#039;m not a Brad K. or a Carl fan... but I really enjoyed the post incident interview with Carl. It reminded me of the trash talking we used to see back in the 1980&#039;s. 

The touchy feely NASCAR just doesn&#039;t do it for me. 

I understand them not wanting flying race cars for not wanting to take out the fans(thanks dudes)... but then again when they do take flight it&#039;s on every sports recap from the cable sports channels to the local nightly news and big hits on the video sharing sites.

I&#039;ve always felt that NASCAR believes in &#039;if you can&#039;t have a good finish, at least we can have an exciting wreck&#039;. 

I know the networks approach it this way with the ads for the plate tracks and they way they analyze the wrecks with ad nauseam replays. 

-W</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s nice to see some gumption back in the Cup series. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not a Brad K. or a Carl fan&#8230; but I really enjoyed the post incident interview with Carl. It reminded me of the trash talking we used to see back in the 1980&#8242;s. </p>
<p>The touchy feely NASCAR just doesn&#8217;t do it for me. </p>
<p>I understand them not wanting flying race cars for not wanting to take out the fans(thanks dudes)&#8230; but then again when they do take flight it&#8217;s on every sports recap from the cable sports channels to the local nightly news and big hits on the video sharing sites.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve always felt that NASCAR believes in &#8216;if you can&#8217;t have a good finish, at least we can have an exciting wreck&#8217;. </p>
<p>I know the networks approach it this way with the ads for the plate tracks and they way they analyze the wrecks with ad nauseam replays. </p>
<p>-W</p>
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		<title>By: Mike S.</title>
		<link>http://www.thenascarinsiders.com/2010/03/08/self-policing-i-guess-we-see-how-that-worked/comment-page-1/#comment-24888</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 19:47:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thenascarinsiders.com/?p=2667#comment-24888</guid>
		<description>LOL, I saw where NASCAR, as a part of this episode, &quot;needs to investigate why the 12 flipped&quot;...

HINT: Its the wing, stupid.

View the replay that shows the reflection of the wing and you see it flex massively when that 195 mph breeze catches it, then the car goes airborn...

But if empiracle evidence is not enough, let&#039;s break out the engineering formula for calculating the lifting force of a wing. It&#039;s hard to represent it correctly here since there are no symbols, but for a wing in clean air:

L = 1/2ClPV*A

Let&#039;s assume some reasonable values for the formula and see what we get:

Coefficient of lift for wing at 20 degrees deflection = 1.5 
Air density at race time = 1.2 Kg/meter3
Velocity = 195 mph
Wing area = 10 square feet (my best guess looking from a distance)

Run the numbers and the lifting force is...drum roll please...

1428 pounds of lift

Now bear in mind that this force has a mechanical advantage because the wing is sticking out the back of the car, so you get a &#039;lever effect&#039; much like handles on a wheel barrow.

The weight bias of the 3500 lb car is (I&#039;m guessing) about 60/40 to the front so you only have about...another drum roll please...1400 lbs weight in the rear of the car.

Hmmmm...about 1400 lbs rear weight pulling down, and a wing producing about 1428 lbs force (not counting the lever effects) pushing up...and they wonder why it went flying???</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LOL, I saw where NASCAR, as a part of this episode, &#8220;needs to investigate why the 12 flipped&#8221;&#8230;</p>
<p>HINT: Its the wing, stupid.</p>
<p>View the replay that shows the reflection of the wing and you see it flex massively when that 195 mph breeze catches it, then the car goes airborn&#8230;</p>
<p>But if empiracle evidence is not enough, let&#8217;s break out the engineering formula for calculating the lifting force of a wing. It&#8217;s hard to represent it correctly here since there are no symbols, but for a wing in clean air:</p>
<p>L = 1/2ClPV*A</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s assume some reasonable values for the formula and see what we get:</p>
<p>Coefficient of lift for wing at 20 degrees deflection = 1.5<br />
Air density at race time = 1.2 Kg/meter3<br />
Velocity = 195 mph<br />
Wing area = 10 square feet (my best guess looking from a distance)</p>
<p>Run the numbers and the lifting force is&#8230;drum roll please&#8230;</p>
<p>1428 pounds of lift</p>
<p>Now bear in mind that this force has a mechanical advantage because the wing is sticking out the back of the car, so you get a &#8216;lever effect&#8217; much like handles on a wheel barrow.</p>
<p>The weight bias of the 3500 lb car is (I&#8217;m guessing) about 60/40 to the front so you only have about&#8230;another drum roll please&#8230;1400 lbs weight in the rear of the car.</p>
<p>Hmmmm&#8230;about 1400 lbs rear weight pulling down, and a wing producing about 1428 lbs force (not counting the lever effects) pushing up&#8230;and they wonder why it went flying???</p>
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		<title>By: Neon</title>
		<link>http://www.thenascarinsiders.com/2010/03/08/self-policing-i-guess-we-see-how-that-worked/comment-page-1/#comment-24887</link>
		<dc:creator>Neon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 18:05:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thenascarinsiders.com/?p=2667#comment-24887</guid>
		<description>Looks like a mere slap on the wrist from Cousin Carl. I guess the precedence has been set for future grudge flippings and spinnings. Fans, bring your football and hockey gear if you are along the fence.
I&#039;m suprised NASCAR didn&#039;t place CE on &quot;double secret probabtion&quot; ala Animal House.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looks like a mere slap on the wrist from Cousin Carl. I guess the precedence has been set for future grudge flippings and spinnings. Fans, bring your football and hockey gear if you are along the fence.<br />
I&#8217;m suprised NASCAR didn&#8217;t place CE on &#8220;double secret probabtion&#8221; ala Animal House.</p>
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		<title>By: Zieke</title>
		<link>http://www.thenascarinsiders.com/2010/03/08/self-policing-i-guess-we-see-how-that-worked/comment-page-1/#comment-24886</link>
		<dc:creator>Zieke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 18:03:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thenascarinsiders.com/?p=2667#comment-24886</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t believe this would have even been an issue had BK just been spun out, which Carl meant to do. BK does have a reputation already, and NASCAR etc. would have said &quot;him again?&quot; And Carl didn&#039;t throw a fit. He had plenty of time to think about it while his torn up car was being fixed. The bottom line,like it or not, is NASCAR cannot bite the hand that feeds them too hard, (parking a driver) or more sponsors will just up and leave. We shall see...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t believe this would have even been an issue had BK just been spun out, which Carl meant to do. BK does have a reputation already, and NASCAR etc. would have said &#8220;him again?&#8221; And Carl didn&#8217;t throw a fit. He had plenty of time to think about it while his torn up car was being fixed. The bottom line,like it or not, is NASCAR cannot bite the hand that feeds them too hard, (parking a driver) or more sponsors will just up and leave. We shall see&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Casey Hooper</title>
		<link>http://www.thenascarinsiders.com/2010/03/08/self-policing-i-guess-we-see-how-that-worked/comment-page-1/#comment-24885</link>
		<dc:creator>Casey Hooper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 17:56:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thenascarinsiders.com/?p=2667#comment-24885</guid>
		<description>Carl needs to wake up.... upon reviewing the early incident, his spotter was saying &quot;inside... Inside.. Inside&quot;.  Carl went there anyway.  Not too bright in my estimation.  Keselowski held the line and the position.  Let us not forget competitors other than &quot;Cousin&quot; Carl are allowed to race for position.  I&#039;m no Keselowski fan, but Carl acted stupidly.  He put a black eye on his sponsors, (I&#039;ll buy Scott&#039;s Lawn Products anyway) Jack Rousch and himself.  And oh, by the way, it cost Roger Penske about a cool quarter million... that car is junk.  The 99 needs to be parked for a while.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Carl needs to wake up&#8230;. upon reviewing the early incident, his spotter was saying &#8220;inside&#8230; Inside.. Inside&#8221;.  Carl went there anyway.  Not too bright in my estimation.  Keselowski held the line and the position.  Let us not forget competitors other than &#8220;Cousin&#8221; Carl are allowed to race for position.  I&#8217;m no Keselowski fan, but Carl acted stupidly.  He put a black eye on his sponsors, (I&#8217;ll buy Scott&#8217;s Lawn Products anyway) Jack Rousch and himself.  And oh, by the way, it cost Roger Penske about a cool quarter million&#8230; that car is junk.  The 99 needs to be parked for a while.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick</title>
		<link>http://www.thenascarinsiders.com/2010/03/08/self-policing-i-guess-we-see-how-that-worked/comment-page-1/#comment-24883</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 15:36:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thenascarinsiders.com/?p=2667#comment-24883</guid>
		<description>Just curious, are you suppose to apply the brakes so that someone can pass you or is it only if CE is coming by.  Brad held his line and CE cut in too quick.  For those who feel BK was in the wrong if you watch the replay you will see a bottleneck forming directly behind BK.  I think it was the 71 almost getting into Brad.  
Test CE for steroids every time she shows up for a race.  Park the 99 for 3 races.  CE has a history and it&#039;s with multiple drivers over several years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just curious, are you suppose to apply the brakes so that someone can pass you or is it only if CE is coming by.  Brad held his line and CE cut in too quick.  For those who feel BK was in the wrong if you watch the replay you will see a bottleneck forming directly behind BK.  I think it was the 71 almost getting into Brad.<br />
Test CE for steroids every time she shows up for a race.  Park the 99 for 3 races.  CE has a history and it&#8217;s with multiple drivers over several years.</p>
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		<title>By: red</title>
		<link>http://www.thenascarinsiders.com/2010/03/08/self-policing-i-guess-we-see-how-that-worked/comment-page-1/#comment-24881</link>
		<dc:creator>red</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 14:01:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thenascarinsiders.com/?p=2667#comment-24881</guid>
		<description>some thoughts after a few days of pondering &amp; reading. i&#039;m not interested in the personalities of edwards and keselowski; i&#039;m looking more at the ramifications on the sport and competitiors:

1. to me, retaliation at atlanta is unacceptable. fast track, big track, lots of possible unintended consequences. for this reason, the analogy of &quot;hamlin/homestead = edwards/atlanta&quot; doesn&#039;t hold for me. if my driver did the same thing, i would most certainly feel the same way.

2. seems to me that &quot;have at it, boys&quot; was solidly in effect the first 2 times that edwards attempted to get to keselowski after returning to the track. i&#039;m confident nascar was well aware of what edwards&#039; intents were when he came back on &amp; i haven&#039;t read anything, anywhere that says he was warned. 

3. TC, thanks for squelching the thought that the team was involved. 

4. i have no issue with retaliation by drivers: it&#039;s part of the sport. but i do expect a professional racer to know how and when and -- most importantly -- when NOT to do it. yes, tempers flare and things happen. but edwards had 153 laps to decide what to do and he chose this. i&#039;m not the biggest fan of hamlin but i give him props for picking his race track for his action.

ok, these last two points ARE driver-related: i lied.

5. i remain concerned about edwards&#039; escalating behavior toward colleagues who he believes have done something to him. he has taken action on the track as well as off the track and, in the case of the particular incidents involving kenseth, harvick, and earnhardt jr, it was after a sufficent &quot;cool down&quot; period. should nascar take that into consideration? i don&#039;t think so: they need to respond to what happened on the track in this particular case.

6. but that being said: i am hard pressed to think of another recent driver who has been as physically threatening outside the car as edwards. i would like nascar to use this as a motivation to work with edwards in reviewing his behavior over the past 4-5 years toward his colleagues and perhaps invest in the &quot;tony stewart school of anger management&quot; classes. anger is one thing: physically threatening or attacking a colleague on repeated occasions is unacceptable.

what would i do in nascar&#039;s place? i&#039;m liking marty smith/jenna fryer idea: no practice for the 99 at bristol. (or how about this: park him for the first lap. let him qualify, let him practice but then hold him for 1 lap.) in addition, i&#039;d hit the driver -- NOT the owner! -- with a points fine. yes, they can &quot;have at it,&quot; but when it gets out of control (and i strongly feel that this was out of control,) i believe nascar has the responsibility to step in and take some action, not just let it pass.  

to those who are asking if the severity of the reaction is because of the 12 car getting airborne: of couse that&#039;s a big part of the reaction. but that doesn&#039;t mean it should be dismissed out of hand, either. the &quot;what ifs&quot; may be interesting but nascar needs to review the &quot;what happened.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>some thoughts after a few days of pondering &amp; reading. i&#8217;m not interested in the personalities of edwards and keselowski; i&#8217;m looking more at the ramifications on the sport and competitiors:</p>
<p>1. to me, retaliation at atlanta is unacceptable. fast track, big track, lots of possible unintended consequences. for this reason, the analogy of &#8220;hamlin/homestead = edwards/atlanta&#8221; doesn&#8217;t hold for me. if my driver did the same thing, i would most certainly feel the same way.</p>
<p>2. seems to me that &#8220;have at it, boys&#8221; was solidly in effect the first 2 times that edwards attempted to get to keselowski after returning to the track. i&#8217;m confident nascar was well aware of what edwards&#8217; intents were when he came back on &amp; i haven&#8217;t read anything, anywhere that says he was warned. </p>
<p>3. TC, thanks for squelching the thought that the team was involved. </p>
<p>4. i have no issue with retaliation by drivers: it&#8217;s part of the sport. but i do expect a professional racer to know how and when and &#8212; most importantly &#8212; when NOT to do it. yes, tempers flare and things happen. but edwards had 153 laps to decide what to do and he chose this. i&#8217;m not the biggest fan of hamlin but i give him props for picking his race track for his action.</p>
<p>ok, these last two points ARE driver-related: i lied.</p>
<p>5. i remain concerned about edwards&#8217; escalating behavior toward colleagues who he believes have done something to him. he has taken action on the track as well as off the track and, in the case of the particular incidents involving kenseth, harvick, and earnhardt jr, it was after a sufficent &#8220;cool down&#8221; period. should nascar take that into consideration? i don&#8217;t think so: they need to respond to what happened on the track in this particular case.</p>
<p>6. but that being said: i am hard pressed to think of another recent driver who has been as physically threatening outside the car as edwards. i would like nascar to use this as a motivation to work with edwards in reviewing his behavior over the past 4-5 years toward his colleagues and perhaps invest in the &#8220;tony stewart school of anger management&#8221; classes. anger is one thing: physically threatening or attacking a colleague on repeated occasions is unacceptable.</p>
<p>what would i do in nascar&#8217;s place? i&#8217;m liking marty smith/jenna fryer idea: no practice for the 99 at bristol. (or how about this: park him for the first lap. let him qualify, let him practice but then hold him for 1 lap.) in addition, i&#8217;d hit the driver &#8212; NOT the owner! &#8212; with a points fine. yes, they can &#8220;have at it,&#8221; but when it gets out of control (and i strongly feel that this was out of control,) i believe nascar has the responsibility to step in and take some action, not just let it pass.  </p>
<p>to those who are asking if the severity of the reaction is because of the 12 car getting airborne: of couse that&#8217;s a big part of the reaction. but that doesn&#8217;t mean it should be dismissed out of hand, either. the &#8220;what ifs&#8221; may be interesting but nascar needs to review the &#8220;what happened.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://www.thenascarinsiders.com/2010/03/08/self-policing-i-guess-we-see-how-that-worked/comment-page-1/#comment-24879</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 06:32:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thenascarinsiders.com/?p=2667#comment-24879</guid>
		<description>Points that all what counts. If BK wrecks sombody and makes the chase, and the people who gets wrecked don&#039;t is that fair. All carl was doing was evening out the points.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Points that all what counts. If BK wrecks sombody and makes the chase, and the people who gets wrecked don&#8217;t is that fair. All carl was doing was evening out the points.</p>
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		<title>By: Joan Graves</title>
		<link>http://www.thenascarinsiders.com/2010/03/08/self-policing-i-guess-we-see-how-that-worked/comment-page-1/#comment-24878</link>
		<dc:creator>Joan Graves</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 04:18:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thenascarinsiders.com/?p=2667#comment-24878</guid>
		<description>GH -- Your remarks about Edwards are WAY off base. He is anything but phony. I don&#039;t approve of his actions in Sunday&#039;s race but that single incident does not a phony make. I not only have watched NASCAR years but I have personal relations &amp; researched drivers. Carl Edwards has done more good quietly off screen than most drivers have done before an audience. Whatever happened on Sunday needs to be dealt with &amp; not repeated but Edwards doesn&#039;t deserve name-calling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GH &#8212; Your remarks about Edwards are WAY off base. He is anything but phony. I don&#8217;t approve of his actions in Sunday&#8217;s race but that single incident does not a phony make. I not only have watched NASCAR years but I have personal relations &amp; researched drivers. Carl Edwards has done more good quietly off screen than most drivers have done before an audience. Whatever happened on Sunday needs to be dealt with &amp; not repeated but Edwards doesn&#8217;t deserve name-calling.</p>
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		<title>By: Kendria</title>
		<link>http://www.thenascarinsiders.com/2010/03/08/self-policing-i-guess-we-see-how-that-worked/comment-page-1/#comment-24877</link>
		<dc:creator>Kendria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 04:16:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thenascarinsiders.com/?p=2667#comment-24877</guid>
		<description>I think with the &quot;have it&quot; in place, NASCAR parking Edwards is enough. Yes I think it unfortunate that BK got airborne. I&#039;m grateful he is ok. I&#039;m also a BK fan. With that said if you are gonna dish it out you better be able to take it. Drivers have been warning this was gonna happen. even KB&#039;s crew chief predicted (Phoenix nationwide race last fall) this would happen.
I do think Cousin Carl might need the number to Tony&#039;s anger management guy. When he snaps its ugly. I don&#039;t think that is helping his situation at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think with the &#8220;have it&#8221; in place, NASCAR parking Edwards is enough. Yes I think it unfortunate that BK got airborne. I&#8217;m grateful he is ok. I&#8217;m also a BK fan. With that said if you are gonna dish it out you better be able to take it. Drivers have been warning this was gonna happen. even KB&#8217;s crew chief predicted (Phoenix nationwide race last fall) this would happen.<br />
I do think Cousin Carl might need the number to Tony&#8217;s anger management guy. When he snaps its ugly. I don&#8217;t think that is helping his situation at all.</p>
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