August 9th, 2009 
T.C. We’ve all seen it happen. From the Friday night local short track race all the way to the Daytona 500. One driver gets wrecked; then he gets mad; then he gets even. But when does one driver retaliating against another driver go too far?
I know I’m going to get blasted by the Robby Gordon fans who hang around here, and I’m sure there will be a TNI hate thread over at PlanetRobby.comon Monday, but I’m going to bring this up anyway. Yesterday in the Nationwide race at Watkins Glen and in last week’s Cup race at Pocono, we saw two incidents involving Robby Gordon and another driver getting together. In the Pocono race, it was Gordon and David Stremme who came together a few times on track, and it ended with Gordon in the fence and both cars parked for five laps. At the Glen it was Gordon and Joey Logano who tangled, and the situation finally ended with Logano on fire after contact between he and the 55 sent his Toyota into the tire barrier.
Both situations could have been handled better by all parties involved, and wrecked race cars and penalties could have been avoided.
In the NNS race, it appeared to me personally that Gordon just wouldn’t let the incident go. He and Logano got together early on, and both cars ended up with cut tires after they made contact into turn one. At this point, neither driver was innocent in the situation. Instead of leaving it at that, Gordon continued to retaliate against Logano until the 20 was wrecked completely and Gordon’s own day was ruined.
I understand that Logano is a young driver, and Gordon may have felt like he needed to send him a message about messing with a veteran driver. But destroying two race cars seems excessive.
Before you get really angry at what I’m saying here, consider this: I don’t fault Gordon for getting back at Logano; at least initially. I would have probably done the same thing. But my problem comes when Gordon made it his personal mission to beat on Logano for the remainder of the day. Retaliate once, deliver the message, and move on.
Gordon ran in the top ten for the majority of the race, at times even looking like he may contend for the win. But because of the shenanigans with Logano and the damage, he ended up 14th. He ruined what could have been a great day for his team because he was angry.
The situation between Gordon and Stremme the previous week at Pocono wasn’t too different. The two got together on track, and after Gordon got spun, he proclaimed on the radio that he was going to wreck the 12. Later, there is more beating and banging, and it appeared Stremme took exception, and wrecked Gordon off the corner. In this case, again, neither driver was innocent. They both made bad decisions and they both deserved to get penalized.
So looking at the two situations, what do you think? Are you okay with a driver getting back at another? At what point do we say that what somebody did in retaliation was too much? Would you rather a driver got back at somebody on track (a la Robby Gordon), or just said something about it later (a la David Reutimann)? Lets try and keep this conversation civil, and avoid driver bashing please. We are all friends here!
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I couldn’t agree with you more about Robby Gordon’s recent on-track conflicts. A little payback if fine, maybe even necessary. But Gordon stepped over the line in Saturday’s Nationwide race, and that kind of overreaction cannot be tolerated.
But hasn’t this pretty much been the pattern of Gordon’s career? Poor judgment undoing his legitimate race accomplishments has been Robby’s career-long theme song, and it has been costing him for years.
I remember when Robby appeared on the scene 16 years ago. Few young drivers had his talent. This guy should have been one of the best of his generation, whether in open-wheel or NASCAR or anything else on wheels. But it didn’t work out that way, because Gordon never attained the necessary maturity and judgment to be one of the great ones.
NASCAR needs to step in and park Robby Gordon, not for five laps, not for one race, but for as long as it takes to ensure that his anger and judgment issues do not endanger hos fellow drivers. If that means that his NASCAR career is over, so be it. He has no one to blame but himself.
This is the KEY sentence in all of it…”Both situations could have been handled better by all parties involved, and wrecked race cars and penalties could have been avoided.”
’nuff said.
I agree with you completely. Robby crossed the line, especially in the Nationwide Race. I was surprised that he wasn’t black flagged.
Re: on track retaliation vs. words
Words never killed anybody. A hot temper with a few hundred horsepower behind it is damn dangerous.
Maybe I’m just more calm than most people but I think the best way to get back at a driver is to pass him and disappear into the horizon. I mean if you can get enough speed to get up next to them and try and wreak em’ why not just go for the clean pass and really piss em off when you get a couple car lengths on em. I’m not trying to bash Robby or nothin but his actions recently have really disappointed me. I’m one of those fans who loves seeing a clean race with little or no wreaks…and when cars catch on fire and tires goin flyin it looks cool! Until Joey Logano get’s a third degree burn(or worse) cuz a driver couldn’t control them self.
When is Robby Gordan not angry or feeling entitled? He seems to be the common thread that runs through a lot of these incidents for years! I appreciate his talent but I think his attitude has kept him from realizing his full potential as a driver.
I agree with Jeff…passing someone who has been a thorn in your side and leaving them in your dust is reward enough. Leave the third grade retaliations in the school yard.
I know it doesn’t fit in today’s world, and wouldn’t be shown on most broadcasts, but I’d rather see a post-race conflict (i.e., fight) between the drivers than needlessly torn-up race cars.
Going after someone with your car is not only stupid, dangerous, and expensive, it’s also relatively wimpy–sort of like leaving your helmet on in a fistfight.
Well said Joe C.
Robby certainly does add some excitement doesn’t he. I think it is very obvious that Robby was really wrong in those situations.
I really don’t think David Stremme was wrong at all and hated seeing him get penalized 5 laps I think it was. Robby had it coming. I heard in an interview that Stremme was patient for a lap and a half waiting for NASCAR to do something and they didn’t while Robby banged on him.
David looked out for himself spun out Robby. Of course NASCAR then said “if only you would have waited for 1 more turn, then we would have penalized him (Robby)”…..yeah, ok.
On the flip side, I think it was good of NASCAR to let Robby bang on David. We don’t see enough of that kind of rivalry any more and think it adds some excitement……MAYBE. I think to many penalties are issued for “rough driving” or something along those lines.
I also completely agree with “Joe C”. Helmets on in a fight is really funny. Tough guys pushing each other around with helmets on….to funny. And you know they can get them off fast. Helmets come off fast after a wreck.
Unfortuntaley I missed the NW race on Saturday and will have to go back and see the video.
TC I have a question for you, being on a crew that works toward a repsectible finish as a goal and possibly a bonus for finishing position (be it per race or end of the year pts standing).
What is the mentality of you personally, as a crew member, when your driver chooses to sacrifice his race (and yours for that matter) for the mission of getting back at a competitor?
These retaliations are very dangerous. We all have seen the multi-car accidents they can cause. I did not see the Saturday race, but if Gordon beat on Logano all day long, NASCAR should have stepped in and done something about it.
Robby Gordon is his own worst enemy.
Sure would be nice if NA$CAR got their head out of their rectum and did what a number of short tracks do. If you spin someone out or wreck them, you are black flagged from the race. No X amount of laps penalty, just a wave of the flag and to the pits you go. Lots of money saved by race teams not having to fix or replace a race car and the incidents will become very minimal. Then you will start to see sponsors on every car and full grandstands again too. Slinger Speedway is one great example. Look and see how many NA$CAR drivers past and present race there.
Hasn’t NASCAR parked drivers who say they’re going to wreck someone? Just another example of inconsistent rules.
The NHL fight model would work well in NASCAR. No banging on each other in powerful machines. But if you want to fight, you have to be out of the car (post-race), with the helmet and gloves off (and HANS), then let ol fashioned fisticuffs settle it. Great TV and we’ll see who backs up their anger and who is a wimp!
I’ll start by saying I don’t know how much retaliation is too much.
It is interesting, though, that we’re discussing the dangers of wrecks that occur from “retaliation”, and how wasteful it is to wreck a car or cars because one is angry. How about the wrecks that occur from bad decisions other than retaliation? Like Denny Hamlin running over Reutimann at Pocono? How many drivers were in danger, and how many cars were damaged or destroyed as a result of that bad decision? Hamlin’s car was so much faster than Reutimann’s that you just can’t defend his decision to run over him. I’m not implying that Hamlin should have been penalized, but then what position have you put a driver or a team in if they are going to be penalized for retaliating?
The fact of this matter is that if you allow drivers to cause wrecks either purposefully or through clearly bad decision making with no danger of being penalized, and then knowing that any victim that chooses to retaliate will be penalized, you will have drivers that will take advantage of this situation and will run roughshod over the weaker competitors.
Why is the bad decision to retaliate any worse or more dangerous than the bad decision to rough up slower cars because they are holding a guy up? I don’t think you can argue for one without the other.
In both of the incidents discussed above, we weren’t shown the initial altercations. We know that there are cameras covering every part of that track, and yet we were only allowed to see Robby’s antics after the initial contact. We didn’t get to see what made Gordon so upset. Not defending or accusing, but to make an informed judgment it seems to me that we should see all of an incident, not just the part they want us to see.
I believe that if guys like Logano and Hamlin weren’t told every day how great they are, and the media wasn’t always talking about this one or that one being the next “phenom”, and if they believed that other drivers would retaliate if you messed with them unnecessarily, then they would race a little cleaner and wouldn’t be as surprised as Logano was when retaliation did occur. The sport would police itself. But if you only penalize the guy that retaliates, and not the guy that starts it, you are going to make this situation worse rather than better.
AND RND – really? I’m not trying to be a wiseacre but how do you defend Stremme’s retaliation but not Gordon’s? We didn’t even see what Gordon was upset about to begin the whole deal. What we did see was that Gordon got upset, said on the radio he was going to wreck the 12, then obviously made the decision to NOT wreck him. Then Stremme obviously made the decision TO wreck Gordon. I’m not going to defend either one of these guys, primarily because we were only shown the “after” part of this deal, but Robby “had it coming”? How do you know Stremme didn’t have it coming? You’re playing favorites here a little if you’re defending one over the other.
djones – yes they have, but I think that only happened when the driver followed through and actually wrecked that someone. I don’t remember an incident where a driver was parked for just saying it.
Bee man –
Oh I don’t know about playing favorites. I guess you could say in a way the I like Robby Gordon…..I have no likes or dislikes about Stremme….I don’t know much about him.
Robby on the other hand tends to keep bloggers and news media personnel in business and it is hilarious to watch him doing something stupid angain and again….so in that sense I like him.
But I know me. I don’t care how it happened. Robby may have decided not wreck Stremme, but if someone is beating on my bumper for a lap and half (which I think is what was reported) regardless of the reason, then I would have to assume the I am going to eventually wreck.
Now, instead of spinning Gordon, I guess he could have pulled over, slammed the brakes on for a second and let Gordon go. I guess the would shown he was the better man. But knowing Gordon, he would have found another way to mess with Stremme (OR ANYONE).
But I know me, I just wouldn’t put up with it. For a lap and a half (could you seriously put up with that for a lap and half—if that’s true)?
That’s like – how long can you take someone poking a finger in your chest and yelling at you before you swing. You try telling them to stop. You try getting away. But they are still there taunting you, poking you…….how long until you swing. Even if you were the idiot on the freeway that wasn’t paying attention and cut someone off and they chased you down. How long could you take it.
Please don’t talk favorites. I have my favorites and neither of these guys are it. If it was Kyle Busch I would have the same feelings, and I am NOT a Kyle Busch fan.
Man that’s always scary when you might have to side with Kyle Busch.
Robby Gordon is one of the more talented drives I have routed for. However, he is also the one who can let his head get in the way of his success. It frustrates me as a fan when one of my drivers does something stupid that costs them a good finish.
Problem with all of Nascar is none of these drivers have balls enough to settle the bullsh!t man to man. They all use there cars to get even. Most wait until a later date so Nascar doesn’t put two and two together. Robby is just dumb he always does it right now.
I am ready for Sam Hornish to retaliate. He gets taken out by Joey Logano in Chicago, dive-bombed by Boris Said at Sonoma and then Kasey Kahne put him in the wall today at Watkins Glen.
Sam you are a nice guy. Dale Jarrett is a nice guy too but he had to hammer Ryan Newman one time (that was all it took) to send the message that you don’t mess with him. Tell the boys at the shop to put a little extra armor on the front end of that Dodge and send the message that needs to be sent.
Guys like Logano and Stremme with the big teams appear to have an attitude that because I drive for big team USA I can do anything I want and Nascar won’t do anything to me. Nascar won’t do anything as bad to large teams as they do to the little teams such as parking drivers, penalties-fines, or chewing outs in the big red trailer. The smaller teams with guts will push harder (if they have the guts) to confront on track issues or off-track issues. Big team drivers just have their big time owners do the screaming like Hendrick, Roush, Penske, Childress or Gibbs.
Robby did handle this like a man with his car. I’ve seen Robby handle stuff like this outside of the car and Joey would not have had a chance. You all have seen Joey – He’s just a little bitty guy. In the cars they both weigh 3400 pounds.
Besides, Robby does not have time to deal with junk like this after the race. He has to head over to the Jim Beam tent and party! Have you seen his tent? It’s a full on rage – win or loose.
Hey Barry, You remember well. I also remember Earnhardt Sr. messing with Bill Elliott once too often. That too, was the last time. Bill recently mentioned that very incident, which made his blood boil way over. The trouble with Robbie is he needs to realize that he does’nt have the equipment to run up front very often, but he seems to think his driving ability will make up for all those equipment shortages. Not true Robbie. Your equipment has to be top notch, and you need a new attitude to run up front. Otherwise just settle for 20th place or etc. And quit causing unneeded wrecks. If I worked for you I would quit & get a job with a driver who appreciates how hard it is for a crew to build racecars.
bee man knows what’s up. AND, hamlin got away with one last week.
Hey RND,
Thanks for the reply – my point may have gotten lost in my post. I understand what you’re saying about how tired a guy would get if someone was beating on his bumper for a lap and a half. From what I could see Gordon only beat on his bumper for a straightaway, which is not a lap and a half. But as I mentioned before we weren’t shown the whole thing from beginning to end so how can we know for sure? I may have been incorrect in saying you were playing favorites, but I am unclear how it can be assumed that Stremme had something to be upset about and that Gordon “had it coming”, but Gordon had no reason to be upset at Stremme. How can we know this? Something happened to get Gordon so angry, and yet we didn’t get to see the whole thing, just what the producer showed us. Gordon felt as though Stremme had been roughing him up too much (no proof, just what he said) and hit Stremme on the straightaway, electing to not wreck him. Stremme elected to continue the antics rather than just calling it even, and wrecked Gordon. I just don’t get the Gordon “had it coming” part, unless we choose to only believe Stremme’s side of the story, which I guess is where I got the playing favorites part of my thinking.
Anyway, no offense intended, just the way it sounded to me. Thanks again for the reply.
Kasey got loose today at the Glen. He did not wreck Hornish intentionally and was sick about what happened (they played some of his in-car on the air; I listen to KK the entire race).
Hornish knew Kasey got loose and had to make the save; had Kasey not made the save he would have still hit Hornish. Sam said he’d have done the same thing.
Kasey doesn’t drive dirty; let’s not put a car that gets loose into a conversation about intentional hits/retaliation. They are two different situations.
And just in case it isn’t obvious, I’m a Kahne fan. : D
Bee man,
Absolutely no offense or anything like that was taken. And I may have jumped the gun saying that “he had it coming”. Maybe I was profiling
Robby Gordon at times can just fly off the handle sometimes or just declare himself a race winner! 
And to be real fair, it seems like that #12 is always spinning. And usually by himself. And actually I think that goes for the #12 in the nationwide as well. (I know, different car different driver…same team, same number).
And you right. I didn’t even see the race. I saw what the media showed me, I read what Robby said about the incident (I think it was that incident) and I saw what Stremme said. But I never saw the whole thing……so who really knows all that happened!
Neon: That really depends on whether or not his retaliation ends our day or wrecks our race car. If we were already wrecked, or something like that I don’t care. But if we had a chance to fix the car and still get a good finish, the guys won’t be happy. But you learn quickly that your own feelings on a situation don’t really matter. Race teams are anything but democratic, so we don’t normally get to throw our vote in on anything. We just have to deal with whatever the outcome is. And the guys in the shop get it worse then road crew guys. They are the ones that end up having to put the cars back together.
I was a big fan of CART and Robby Gordon during their prime years (1990s). Upon his entry into the series, Robby Gordon represented a new generation of young American drivers that was supposed to mimic the success of aging veterans, like Mario Andretti, Danny Sullivan, etc.
Robby Gordon had the talent, sponsorship and equipment to win on a consistent basis. Unfortunately, his temper and lack of foresight stalled his career and podium finished. In addition, he burnt many of his relationships with teams & personnel, even till this day.
If he had the right mindset and attitude behind the wheel, Robby Gordon could have accomplished a lot more, regardless of the series he raced in.
Like the old saying goes “You can’t teach an old dog new tricks”. As for Robby Gordon, his best years are far behind him.
This conversation reminds me of a quote from Dick Williams when he was Red Sox manager. When describing first baseman George Scott, he said, “He’s an all star from the neck down.”
One thing missing from this post is the fact other drivers have done similar things.. Harvick and Stewart come to mind. NASCAR put them on probation.
Why is Gordon not on probation for these incidents?
I agree with the posts that Robby is a very talented driver but…. he is way to agressive and paranoid that every driver on the track is out to get him. Any mistake or bump he treats as intentional. A trip to Stewart’s anger managment class or a therapist may help Robby be a top notch driver and win some races. But in the end it does make for good TV. Kinda like a drinking game we had on what lap D. Cope would crash and take some one out with him…
Love your page, its the second page I go to every morning. I normally love your columns but can’t believe the side you took in regards to Robby Gordon. First off he never wrecked stremme. But Stremme is fighting for a job and he thought that he was in the right to blatenly wreck the #7. He not Robby should have been parked for the race. Now onto Pocono to finally see the fact that Mr Logano is just a 19 year old baby. Who has the right to say “you can’t fix stupid” when your 19 years old and have raced in what maybe 20 cup races? He’d never even SEEN the track till this week and he wants to mess with Robby on the course? What, cause he lucked into a great ride he doesn’t need to show any respect? It doesn’t matter who was or wasn’t at fault. This 19 year old punk showed that he still has a lot of growing up to do. He can start with the word respect and work from there. When Robby was running up front he had no issues as those drivers drive with respect. Go #7.
I am a Robby Gordon fan. Have been for years. I agree that his head is Robby’s worst enemy. Nascar does seem to have it in for him though. Remember Montreal a few years back? Robby won that race, Nascar made a bad call and then suspended him from the cup race the following day. They would not have done that to one of the big draw drivers.
It’s simply a case of Nascar looking out for the fan favorites. They have always done it, and they always will.
I was a HUGE Dale Sr. fan but I will be the first to tell you he should have been parked for half the crap he pulled on the racetrack. He was not, why? Because the fans came to see him. He was the show. Take that away and the show is over. Robby, keep doing what you are doing, I will always be a fan.
Bobby