So unless you live under a rock (which I’m guessing you don’t, because you are reading this blog post), you know that Joey Logano picked up his first Cup Series win last Sunday at New Hampshire. The #20 Toyota was certainly not the best car and Logano actually got two lucky dogs during the race to even be in position. It was because of some good (and lucky) strategy by crew chief Greg Zipadelli that allowed Logano to be in the lead when the rains came.
Earlier in the week, Journo and I had a brief discussion about what Logano’s win actually meant. Journo says as a first time winner, that’s not how Journo would want to win it. I disagree.
Then on Tuesday, I posed the question to our Twitter followers and let them sound off. Most of them agreed, more or less, that it wasn’t quite the same as a “regular” win.
Here is my own two cents.
NASCAR is a team sport. It’s not just the driver out there competing. For every driver, there are tens or hundreds of people you don’t see who have put their blood, sweat, and tears into that race car to make it competitive. In some cases the driver will win it for the team, and in others the team will win it for the driver.
Also, winning races isn’t just about who has the best car or the best driver. The “best” often doesn’t win. If they did, there would be no point in running the races, as we’d all know who would be in victory lane all the time. Something tells me you don’t watch because you know who is going to win. It takes the right moves made by the driver AND by the team to win a race.
On Sunday, Logano and Zipadelli didn’t know or have more information then what was available to every other team. Crew chiefs up and down pit road knew that there was weather in the area. It just so happened that Zipadelli was able to work his pit stops right to allow Logano to stay out a little longer then some other cars and be in the lead when the sky opened up.
Race strategy is something that plays into every single race we run, whether you notice it or not. It just so happens that this particular strategy had a little help from mother nature. But I don’t think the weather’s involvement takes away from the win. And I’m pretty sure NASCAR doesn’t give less points for a rained out “W.”
Lets not forget either, that Logano didn’t get the lead under caution when everyone else pitted. He was able to stay out under green, but then had to continue racing hard to keep the lead, all while saving enough fuel to make it to the end.
So because of all of this, I don’t think you can take anything away from Logano’s triumph. It wasn’t any easier for Logano to win this race then it is for another driver to win it the old fashioned way. If it was easy to win this way, everyone would be doing it.
Now that I’m done making my own argument, what is yours? Are you with me or against me on this one? Why? And don’t give me “he didn’t deserve it.” No driver “deserves” to win more then another, regardless of their situation.
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on Jul 1st, 2009 at 11:38 pm
A win is a win.
However with the DF Restarts now with the wave around rule the lucky dog needs to go away. The crews need to play the strategy to be in a position to get the wave around.
on Jul 1st, 2009 at 11:47 pm
A win is a win unless the driver wrecked another driver to win in my opinion, however when it comes to Matt Kenseth’s win in the Daytona 500, Mark Martin at Michigan, Kurt Busch last year at NHMS, Dale Jr. last year at Michigan, David Reutimann winning at Charlotte, brad keselowski at Talladega, David ragen at Talladega in the Nationwide Series race and now Joey Logano at New Hampshire (which I was in the grandstands to see and most people their were happen), their all race strategy victories, their the same as what some call “regular” win, their all victories, hats off to them, their all winners (driver and team).
“regular” win, oh brother, like I said at the beginning of this comment, unless the driver wrecked another driver to win, a win is win whether its the best car, or race strategy or a rain Win, there is no difference in the records, theres no difference to me.
on Jul 2nd, 2009 at 12:42 am
He deserved it, it just isn’t as impressive as a green flag win. Sure he picked up a couple of lucky dogs… but some drivers out there wrecked out or just plain quit early on.
I’m not completely sold on Legano’s talent, yet, but I’ll consider this a step in the right direction.
on Jul 2nd, 2009 at 1:12 am
I don’t mind a team getting a win this way, but for me to change my opinion about the team, they have to back up the win with a second or third trip to victory lane in the future. Until that happens, it might just have been “luck”, and the win has an automatic mental asterisk. Take Casey Mears’ win in the 25 a couple of years ago as an example. The 25 got that win on a fuel gamble, and Mears hasn’t even come close to winning since then. Big asterisk!
Winning a race on fuel milage makes you a NSCS winner, yes. But it doesn’t automatically make you a *contender*. Time will tell if the 00 and 20 teams will contend for wins in the future. Reutiman’s team has certainly shown the potential, and the Logano/Zippadelli combo is almost certain to become more potent in the future. But until they do their blip size on the radar doesn’t increase.
on Jul 2nd, 2009 at 6:41 am
While a win is a win, some wins are better than others. Winning the Daytona 500, with the money it brings and with how badly every team wants to win, is bigger than winning, no offense, a 300 mile race at Loudoun. Likewise, winning a race where everybody is racing hard for a win is better than a win (say at the second race at Richmond) where a bunch of drivers are racing less for the win than to protect their point position. And a win is better if the top teams don’t take themselves out during the race, such as last fall’s race at Talledega (beating Regan Smith to the finish line isn’t the same as beating Busch, Edwards and Johnson).
on Jul 2nd, 2009 at 6:52 am
If you are first in line at the end of the race then you are the winner! End of story.
on Jul 2nd, 2009 at 7:03 am
Aren’t they all strategy wins, pretty much?
on Jul 2nd, 2009 at 7:46 am
I have begun to understand how the races are similar to a game of chess with strategy playing a significant role in the outcomes. So, to me, it is just as legitimate a win as any other. Of course I would have loved to see Kurt Bush and Jeff Gordan “duke it out” for the final laps. But Joey and his crew chief and his team made what became the winning moves. Happens to others too. Still a great race.
on Jul 2nd, 2009 at 8:22 am
The first driver to the finish line is the one who ran the fastest 500 miles (or whatever). The driver who completes the race distance first is definitely a legitimate winner, no matter how the team got him there.
on Jul 2nd, 2009 at 8:30 am
IMHO Logano and Zippy played their cards right given the hand they, and everyone else were delt. Hats off to #20 team for strategizing. But……not pulling a steaming hot car into victory lane w/ all the hoopla for your first win is IMO the downer. After several wins, it’s likely not such a big deal, but 1st time in the “Victory Garage” just doesn’t carry the same POP.
Problem I have is that pesky Lucky Dog garbage. It’s just plain manufactured racing (“racertainment” as a TNI blogger perfectly tagged it) and serves no purpose other than ad time for Ken Butler’s Aaron Rents. Ok off my LD for scraps soapbox for now.
Steve #5 above-I like your comments, but let’s remember that Regan Smith wasn’t “beat” to the finish line at Dega last Fall. He just got dropped kicked by NASCAR after the fact.
on Jul 2nd, 2009 at 8:39 am
I hear what everyone is saying but in most cases a fuel milleage win is still won by someone who was a contender that particular race. I remember last year Carl Edwards won on fuel mileage, but that was how the pit strategy worked that day. In other words he had the best car and would have been the victim of feul mileage if he had not gone into conserve mode. His car was a contender all day. In Logano’s case the car was not a contender at all. They just happened to be in the right place at the right time. It happens that way sometimes. I would rather see a car that was at least a top 10 car win. The 20 car was no better than a 20th place car. So I know a win is a win but until the driver and crew can contend for wins I don’t put much belief into this one. I do think that Logano is establishing himself as the most humble, mature and most likable Gibbs driver. That is a shame for his more veteran teammates. Maybe they can learn that from him.
on Jul 2nd, 2009 at 9:21 am
What Logano’s win tells me is that he and Zippy are now able to work successful in-race strategies together. Normally, such chemistry takes at least a full season to brew.
Joe and J.D. Gibbs should be pleased!
on Jul 2nd, 2009 at 9:44 am
It looks like we all agree that a win is a win but let’s look at this from Logano’s perspective. While he may be all grins in victory lane, he knows that this is a “BS” win & he most likely didn’t want to get his first cup win this way. This isn’t a guy who is a stranger in the winner’s circle. He knows what it’s like to have a hot rod underneath him & what it’s like to to lean on another car & having that other car lean back on him coming off of turn 4 on the last lap.
While it’s still out if he will become a contender in the cup series, he does know how to win & he’s still looking for respect from the vets. Winning a rain shortened race with a 20th place car is hardly putting in your dues & won’t result in Kurt Busch giving you a break on the track.
I think if anything, this win will make Joey want it even more & work even harder. He knows this win is meaningless as far as his cup career is concerned.
on Jul 2nd, 2009 at 9:46 am
Sorry Joe W. I kind of repeated what you said. Didn’t see your comment when I was typing.
on Jul 2nd, 2009 at 11:47 am
Certainly a rain-shortened race is boring, but there’s nothing you can do about that usually.
However, that aside- how is this different than Martin’s last win? He had no control over TWO drivers running out of fuel. So his win was a “lucky” one just as much as Logano.
on Jul 2nd, 2009 at 1:10 pm
It’s enormously difficult to win any race (even if you have the best car). There’s nothing cheap about Logano’s win because every team knew the rain was coming. The point isn’t that he didn’t have the best car but that the team was able to come up with a way to keep him in the race and out front at the right time.
on Jul 2nd, 2009 at 1:15 pm
Christopher – the big difference being that Mark ran in the top-5/10 all day. He was a contender for the win before fuel became an issue. The only time Joey was near the front of the line was when he got his Lucky Dog wave-bys.
on Jul 2nd, 2009 at 3:12 pm
You bring up one interesting point… why not reduce the points based on the % of the total laps run?? The FIA does this for F1, and it ONLY makes sense to do so in NASCAR. For example… this event ran roughly 91% of the laps. Instead of Logano getting 190 points, he would earn 172.9 points. Minor difference but in the long run I think it’s a better indicator of who had the best season. At this point it hasn’t happened but let’s say some back marker, like John Andretti or Regan Smith, won this weekend’s race instead. 190 points and a W. Congrats, I still don’t “like it” but I accept it as part of racing. However, let’s say something INSANE happened–what if that guy won like 4 straight rained out events?? Does he REALLY deserve to earn 190×4 points?? I don’t think so. It’s a rare chance for something like that to happen but either way, I don’t feel a rain-shortened win should be scored the same way. Yes a W for the record books but they shouldn’t get full points.
Also, I keep hearing “there’s no * in the record books for wins by rain” but those people obviously don’t read the Racing-Reference.info stats. Every rain-shortened win is proceeded by “* Race shortened to xxx laps due to rain.” Sorry guys, the fans have always felt this way and will always feel this way. The race was supposed to be 301 laps and it went 273. There should be SOME way to distinguish between a rainout win and a straight up win.
on Jul 2nd, 2009 at 3:25 pm
Yes Christopher Mark was lucky but he was running in 3rd place and had a strong car. Joey had a 20th place car. That is my problem with it. He was just not a contender until the rains came.
on Jul 2nd, 2009 at 7:44 pm
While I wish the win went to someone who was racing up front and still had the gas mileage to make it, 10 years from now are we going to be saying his first win was because of rain. I doubt it, now if it’s his only win ever, it could come up
on Jul 2nd, 2009 at 8:22 pm
Question:
Do Strategy Wins Mean Less To You?
Answer:
No
on Jul 2nd, 2009 at 8:25 pm
PS
Question:
are congrats in order for the youngest ever cup winner?
Answer:
yes
on Jul 2nd, 2009 at 10:42 pm
I’m with T.C.
Congratulations to Joey!
(and I’m confused on the “wave around” rule…..)
on Jul 4th, 2009 at 10:13 pm
Question:
Do dirty driving (e.g. wrecking the leader on the final turn ) Wins Mean Less To Me?
Answer:
Yes
ps
not saying anyone was driving dirty, or anything.