June 3rd, 2009 
Journo *DISCLAIMER: We ask you beforehand to fully read the post before responding. We encourage good discussion and well thought out opinions. What we are not going to put up with is name calling and personal attacks. If we see any of that happening we will delete the comment.*
On Tuesday the National Stock Car Racing Commission, NASCAR’s version of an appellate court, upheld most of the penalties against driver Carl Long.
In their ruling the Commission upheld the 12-race suspension, but only to the Cup Series garage, the $200,000 fine of crew chief Charles Swing and loss of owner and driver points. The Commission said if Swing is unable to pay the fine it may not fall to Long.
From the start of this thing, I can honestly say I have had very little pity for Carl Long. The minute he entered his car into the race a few weeks ago he agreed to abide by NASCAR’s rules. These rules are spelled out very clearly, in a very detailed rule book that Carl Long has.
He knew the expectations and he knew the consequences and he did not follow them either by accident or on purpose (I’m not going to try to determine intent and NASCAR shouldn’t have to either). He is now paying the price.
What was Carl Long’s response to this? It wasn’t the maturity you would expect of a 41-year-old. No, we got name calling, off the wall accusations, an inability to take responsibility and conspiracy theories. I never much thought about Carl Long before this, but I now have very little respect for the man.
He has tried to place blame on respected engine builder Ernie Elliott. Let me remind you this was a motor Elliott bought used from Chip Ganassi Racing, and then sold to Long not last month, but in January. The last time I checked if I buy a used car and something goes wrong five months later I don’t blame the car dealer that sold me the car. Ernie Elliott has no responsibility for that motor once it is sold, much like that car dealer. Who knows who has been working on that motor, or what has been done with that motor since it was sold to Long FIVE MONTHS ago.
Ernie Elliott has zero responsibility in this situation. And I am disgusted that Carl Long would trash this man the way he has. Ernie Elliott has built engines for years and has never had an issue like this. We certainly never saw this problem arise when he was building motors for Ganassi; and I assure you plenty of Ganassi’s motors were inspected.
Elliott was not the only person he trashed though. He referred to John Capels, Jack Housby and George Silbermann, all very respected businessmen in their own right, as “big bullies.”
He then went to on to attack both Brian France and Mike Helton. I know these are controversial men among many ardent fans, but they don’t deserve to have their integrity questioned.
And then he went on to attack the business as a whole, one which as far as I can tell has earned him a very good living. I saw in one article he estimated he was making about $100,000 a year. Now this isn’t to say he hasn’t earned that, but that is good money that not too many people in this country make. Especially to go racing every weekend.
Long and many others have argued that he can now no longer make a living doing what he knows. This is a farce. He works for a team that not only sometimes has two Cup Series teams but also a Nationwide team (remember he is not suspended from the Nationwide garage). He also doesn’t have to travel to the track for those weeks he is on suspension. Does this mean his present role with Front Row Motorsports is going to have to change for a little while? Definitely. But does it mean he can’t earn a living? Absolutely not.
At the end of the day the only reason this has become the issue that it has become is because Long can’t afford to pay the penalty. In instances where other teams have been issued large or aggressive penalties for things like jet-fuel additives in the fuel system (Micheal Waltrip Racing), or magnets behind the gas pedal (Joe Gibbs Racing) (among other incidents) we saw a lot people, a lot of fans calling these teams cheaters.
This happens to a small team and it is just the evil empire trying to stick it to the small guy. I think the release from the commission said it best:
And guess what? Drivers get this. Other than to sympathize with his lack of funding, I haven’t heard a single driver disagree with NASCAR issuing a penalty (Martin Truex and Jeff Burton here). They know if this were their team, they would face just as stiff a penalty. I know this is something many people don’t believe, but it’s true, NASCAR has proved many times before they are willing to fine the big teams (Chad Knaus was ejected from Speedweeks and then suspended for six races in 2006; also refer to earlier mentioned penalties).
This was a big deal, whether Carl meant to do it or not. Every team and driver knows fuel, tires and engines are things you don’t mess with and he apparently inadvertently broke that golden rule.
He wanted to run with the big dogs on Sunday, but clearly could not handle the responsibility and consequences that can go along with that (i.e. $200,000 fines). In my opinion if Carl didn’t have the resources, for whatever reason, to make sure every part of that car was in spec he didn’t deserve to be out on that race track.
He now needs to bite the bullet and serve his penalty with integrity.
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KR: I agree with you about Stewart being suspended. He is the owner and is responsible for the car. But since the engines from Hendrick are sealed, Stewart needs some sort of recourse in case the engine isn’t legal. He obviously can’t tear into it to check. So I would imagine the contract has provisions for that.
And we are not suggesting that Carl bought the engine, tore it down, and machined it until it was illegal. Is that a possibility? Certainly. But we aren’t saying that is what happened. The point we are trying to make, is it doesn’t matter why the engine was too big, Long is still responsible for it. Intentional or not.
Windowlicker, I am refering to the aero tolerance policy. Usually once a year you see a good student get expelled for giving a friend or even having tylenol. Zero tolerance means they get treated like a dealer selling meth. My point is that it does not work, all situations are different. I feel like Robby Gordon got screwed on the nose deal last year also. Having been around racing all of my life and being a racer for a lot of that I hate to see someone who is doing it for the love of it get jobbed. I bothered me at the short tracks and it bothers me at the cup level. Let’s see what happens when the fad dies out and the big money dries up.
Read the story you have linked about Waltrip and the jet fuel a Daytona. The 24 car is almost an inch low and Na$car says its a parts failure, no intent to cheat, and only sends him to the rear of the field for the 500. Compare that to Carls penalty….. For the record, I agree with Carl, the appeal board is a joke and Nascar doesnt want the little guy in racing.
If you think $200000 is a fair fine for Carl, why is it double the fine for M. Waltrip using “jet fuel” or whatever in the manifold. Same thing you are changing the HP of the engine. I don’t remember Carl ever getting any other penalties, however it seems Chad Kanas and company can commit penalty after penalty, how about a 3 strikes you’re out rule!!!!!
I believe Rusty Wallace had an “oversized” engine at one point in time and they allowed it 24 hours to cool and it checked legal. I don’t think they did that for Carl. We all know metal expands when hot. I’ll bet that engine maybe legal by now, however, we will never see it again. The same way they didn’t allow J. Mayfield to get the “sample B” tested by and outside agency. No way for him to prove anything.
TC – Are you really THAT confident in the ABSOLUTE integrity of NASCAR? Do you really think they would not hide something for the good of the show? Or do something like call for a debris caution for the good of the show? REALLY?!
Just so you know, I am an insider myself. I have worked in the industry since the late ’80s. Just not a mechanic.
I have been involved with several organizations. I have seen my crew chief come home with his tail between his legs and huge fines, suspension and points. I have also seen a different crew chief come home with his tail between his legs…but a grin. He was simply told, “don’t ever come back here with that.” No penalty. No fine. No suspension. No press release. No NASCAR statement.
They were very similar infractions. Very different teams/driver. Very different results.
I have been in the NASCAR/ISC suite when the race was getting boring and Bill Jr picked up the phone and called for a caution. 2 laps later there was something “suspicious” the observer was concerned about in turn 2 at Dover…caution is out!
So, I may not call it “favoritism,” but I will call it manipulation. Not necessarily because they “like” a driver or not, but just like the old provisionals or promoters options…it was “for the good of the show.”
My second point (and I obviously did not explain myself well) is that .17 is a very small margin of error.
As you well know, teams push the limits every day. I just do not think they are THAT good at pushing this limit that nobody has exceeded it in 18 years. Plus, if as you say in another posting, they are allowed 358.09, then the variance is really only .08 cu in. That is VERY small.
I am very curious to see the actual measurements and calculation to see how they came up with 358.17. As with all measurements, there is a margin of error. Since you are an actual crewmember, I am sure you know, but 1) do they measure the radius & stroke of each cylinder? Or just 1 cylinder and multiply that by 8?, 2) To what unit of measure do those tools measure? 1/32nd? 1/1000ths? , 3) How many decimal places of pi do they use? Obviously, all of those variables have a direct impact on the end result of the computation.
Using 3.14 vs 15 decimal places of Pi, changes the result by more than the infraction. If they only use one cylinder and multiply by 8, do they use the biggest or smallest? Or whichever one they happened to pick to measure? If bore changes by less than 5/10,000ths, that could create the infraction. If stroke changes by less than 8/10,000ths, that could create the infraction. Are their tools really accurate to 1/10,000ths?
Nascars has hardly ever given the same punishment to the same crime!
The real issue I have is yes Carl Long was caught using a big engine!
But I dont trust Nascar anymore checking engines or other things, I mean some of these engines of other ‘BIG TEAMS ” could be large and they give a ‘nod and wink’
They now carry the engines to Charlotte to be checked in behind door setting! With all the ‘money in the sport’, I think the compeditors should protest the other car like in the old days, and check it in front of the other teams so the ‘Checks and Balances” are in place and more ‘transparecy’ in place!
This might sound a bit harsh, does Nascar have a ‘conflict of interest’ policy when hiring inspectors? Some could be getting ‘Gifts from other teams, in which they give favorable treatment!
I think another good thing would be let them at Daytona and Talledaga put the restrictor plates and in box and let a ‘fan pass them out’! Seen to many questable races their!
Cheating and paying fines “could be taken” as well as given out!
*Comment Deleted*
Bob- I tried to email you and ask you to clean up your earlier comment. Unfortunately the email you provided did not work. If you would like to clean up your comments and remove the vulgarities, the name calling, and the personal attacks I would be happy to post it. The inappropriateness of your last comment is troubling.
knobcreekfan: I don’t think I ever said I was “THAT confident in the ABSOLUTE integrity of NASCAR.” Please try and stick to what I actually said. And there are certainly things I’ve seen them do that I don’t agree with. But I also don’t think that there isn’t a giant conspiracy that exists so Dale Jr. can win every race like some fans would lead you to believe. When actual people are involved, nothing is ever going to be perfect. NASCAR is a business, and I don’t doubt there have been decisions made for the good of the show.
But in this case I do agree with NASCAR’s decision. And I think the only reason this penalty is any sort of issue is because Carl is a backmarker who can’t afford the fine. If this was Kyle Busch, there wouldn’t be any outrage.
And will somebody please provide me with evidence that NASCAR wants the little guy out? And don’t point to this situation. Many of you keep saying it, yet nobody can offer any valid argument why they think that.
The moral here is not to buy an engine from Ernie Elliot. Down 50 horses and blows up after a few laps? For $100,000?!! Has one of his engines come close to winning in the last 20 years? Carl is paying the price, but Ernie should be embarrassed as hell!!
Ken – Where did you see Carl paid $100,000 for this engine?
That’s beside the point though. I count at least six wins since 2005. JPM at Sonoma and Mexico City, and then three Nationwide wins with Reed Sorenson and one with Casey Mears. There are others though.
Let’s try to remember this wasn’t a motor Ernie built for Carl. It was a used motor that has been run before.
RYAN – “T C are you sure they would have penalized a big name driver twelve races for a miniscule .017 infraction? Please! Wake up. That is what has all us ordinary Joes up in the air.”
Turn about is fair play… What makes you so sure NASCAR wouldn’t slam a “big name” driver for the same offense?
First of all you have to overlook a slight difference, Long was not only the owner of the team but the individual that purchased engine a “big name” driver wouldn’t be in the same category as Long.
But hey I understand where you’re coming from. Someone has to keep the Nazi UFO theories and Grassy Knoll theories alive.
steveC – “1) When the 55 was caught with jet fuel, The driver was not suspended and he was the owner on record.
2) When Robbie was caught with the nose issue tne driver was not suspended and he was the owner of record
3) when Carl was caught with the oil tank lid missing the driver nor the owner Jack Roush were suspended.
What’s different in all three of those cases as opposed to Long’s?
Who put the jet fuel in the 55, placed the illegal nose on the 7 or tinkered with Carl’s oil tank?
There’s zero proof the owner’s or drivers did anything, in Long’s case he’s admitted to not only purchasing the engine but directing it be installed in the car.
Nowhere has Carl Long said he could not afford to pay the fine, he said his crew chief couldn’t afford it. NASCAR said that Long could not pay the fine for his Crew Chief. I don’t disagree with suspending them for 12 races but fining a crew chief $200,000.00 when he may only make 50-75k a year is a little obscene. Fine the owner not the workers.
Let’s face it, Jr, J. Gordon, Johnson, Stewart or any other of the most popular drivers will never be parked. If a violation is discovered it will be spun to be simalar, but with different circumstances to keep this from happening. Carl Long was no doubt in violation of the rules, but it seems that NASCAR always chooses to ramp up the penalties when the violations are by teams and drivers that will produce little backlash from the fans and still get the point accross to all teams.
If we want to be fair accross the board on fines, maybe the fine should be a percentage of winnings over a period of time so Nascar can cripple the megateams as well as the little guy
marc. Do you really think that NASCAR would suspend Jr. if his engine was found .017 over. REALLY? I had forgotten about the Rusty Wallace incedent. There is enough evidence right there.
knobcreekfan – “I have been in the NASCAR/ISC suite when the race was getting boring and Bill Jr picked up the phone and called for a caution. 2 laps later there was something “suspicious” the observer was concerned about in turn 2 at Dover…caution is out!”
Really?
As a self-described “insider” and one who has “worked in the industry since the late ’80s” presumably you care about the sport and the integrity of said sport.
Can we assume you have screamed to everyone involved?
Letters? Emails? Something online? Lawsuits?
Anything to lend the slightest bit of credibility to the explosive charge you make?
TC – first let me say I am not defending Carl. I think if you bolt it on the car, it is your responsibility. The penalty for cheating should fit the crime.
Having said that however, I do feel that before you slap someone with a 12 week suspension and $200,000 fine, the infraction better be beyond the margin of error.
If I were Carl and his legal team, I would be arguing the method and tools of the measurement vs calling NASCAR names and pointing blame on Ernie or Chip.
Now to quote you….”knobcreekfan: Thank you for the black helicopters/conspiracy theory comment. The favoritism that everyone thinks exists just isn’t true.” Dude – I do not want to start he said/she said, but your response sounds like you are awfully confident that I was wrong.
But like you said…stick to what I actually said. I never used favortism. Never said Dale Jr. I was very broad in saying “big name team/driver.”
I never said they want the little guy out. Yes, I think they can stick it to Carl and make an example out of him. It scares the heck out of anybody else that may be pushing the rules. But (no offense Carl) having Carl out of business is not going to impact the show in the slightest.
My original point was quite simple. The fans can yell & scream all they want that they want set fines/penalties for the various infractions. They can yell & scream that they want a list of prohibited drugs. If NASCAR does not publish the results of every measurement from every car from every inspection (or every drug test), then an infraction that could lead to a 12 week suspension from a team/driver that NASCAR does not want suspended for 12 weeks will simply never see the light of day. The owner/crew chief/team manager/driver/etc may all get a stern talking to. They may be found in violation of a smaller infraction, docked points, pay a fine & apologize. But not be suspended for 12 weeks.
Whether he was wrong or right, I’m actually happy that Carl said what he did about NASCAR. Having watched races for 25+ years now, it’s a rarity to hear drivers speak their minds when they oppose the sanctioning body. Of course, those that do (Stewart, etc), are always “called to the red trailer” and asked not to say bad things about the series.
Thank you, Carl Long, for having the guts to speak your mind and tell us how you really feel. I can only hope other drivers follow suit.
KR – “Do you really think that NASCAR would suspend Jr. if his engine was found .017 over. REALLY? I had forgotten about the Rusty Wallace incedent.[sic] There is enough evidence right there.”
Yeah, they would, if Dale Jr. had purchased the engine and or modified it so it would have failed inspection.
Let me know when that happens.
P.S. knobcreekfan nothing yet?
What I haven’t been able to wrap my head around for years is you can cheat in multiple ways that create a noticeable advantage in the race. You win the race and collect $300k prize money and 190 points. NASCAR catches you and you are fined $100k and 100 points. You get to keep the win, have a net gain of $200k and 90 points even though you cheated blatantly and had a noticeable advantage. No driver or owner suspensions.
I don’t think anybody will ever be able to explain to me how that is fair, or even begins to make sense. All this nonsense about the dreaded “tires, fuel, engine” crap makes no sense either. There are rules for all this stuff…..breaking the rule of skinning your car with illegal sheet metal since it is black and white in the rulebook should be no more taboo then an engine that is .17 over. Safety isn’t any difference from on to another….both are designed to make the car go faster than NASCAR intended the car to go under the rulebook.
Go to your local short track and get caught breaking a rule in the rulebook. You load up and go home without purse money or points. Simple as that.
Again, I say penalize Carl. I agree 100% that he should be fined. However, his cheat was absolutely no worse than illegal sheet metal, illegal rear ends, cars that are too low, magnets under the gas pedal, rear window height adjusters, oil tank lids flying off, illegal springs, illegal shocks, and on and on. Most of that other stuff has been raced and won with in points paying races.
The rulebook and NASCAR comments on what is ‘taboo’ aside, somebody explain to me how an engine that is .17 over is any worse than all the other cheats I mentioned above from a competitive and racing integrity stand point. I just don’t see it.
Phantom cautions have been around as long as I can remember. Big Bill and Bill Jr. always remembered it was a show first. Watch some of the videos of the old drivers talking, they all have stories about being told not to stink up the show. Old news, how long have you been around racing? If any of the big name drivers were caught with anything wrong you can bet it would be taken back to the R@D center for further inspection. It is not that they don’t want the little guy anymore it is that they don’t care about them. Moving farther from the roots. I have been going to racetracks since I was 3 years old. Superbirds were in the first cup race I saw. Were Cup is headed really bothers me but I am one of the old fans that don’t matter anymore.
Larry – “but it seems that NASCAR always chooses to ramp up the penalties when the violations are by teams and drivers that will produce little backlash from the fans and still get the point accross to all teams.”
2002 – Kevin Harvick was “parked” by NASCAR officials and was not be allowed to drive in the Virginia 500 at Martinsville Speedway, the suspension was the result of an incident in the previous days NASCAR Truck series race at Martinsville.
The decision was “final, non-appealable and non-reviewable.”
The penalties given to both the #48 and #24 teams are legion, although most were of the 50 point a few grand variety however, that changed in 2007 and as you call them they were “ramped up.”
#24-Jeff Gordon/Hendrick Motorsports, July 2007, Sonoma, Front Fender Manipulation, Steve Letarte, $100,000/100, 6 races
#48-Jimmie Johnson/Hendrick Motorsports, July 2007, Sonoma, Front Fender Manipulation, Chad Knaus, $100,000/100, 6 races
Harvick was on the radio telling the team he was going to intentionally wreck someone. He had gotten to the point that he was going to hurt someone. Something had to be done. For the conspiracy people, It was Coy Gibbs he went after.
To Racer- I’m with ya here buddy on the strange way to handle a “cheater” that wins and to all….sorry for the repost of my comment from 5/20, but here goes. I wrote “I dearly wish Carl Long’s purchased motor had propelled him to finish 1st or 2nd (or even the fan vote) in the showdown….advanced thru the All Star segements and collected the million….just to see how Helton and crew would have handled themselves.
Based on this post response, we can all vote Carl (Long, not Edwards) in for 2010.”
For next May, someone should build one bad ass motor, hire an out of work driver w/ talent.
marc – you made a post time stamped at 6:55pm asking me for some type of evidence. I have not replied to your request with 35 minutes and you are upset?!?! Wow – now that is demanding!
I care about the sport in that it has provided me with a nice living for the bulk of my adult life. However, (and maybe you have gathered from my posts), I will not vouch for the integrity of the sport. And pardon me TC if I am taking liberties with your remarks, but it appears TC would agree that there have been occasions that actions were taken for the good of the show.
KR – “He had gotten to the point that he was going to hurt someone. Something had to be done. For the conspiracy people, It was Coy Gibbs he went after.”
And so?
There’s a butt load of people in this thread claiming NASCAR would never, NEVER park a top line driver.
And if you could KR, please explain how the potential to hurt someone in the truck event translated to being suspended in the next days Cup event.
That straw you’re grasping is a mighty thin one.
knobcreekfan – “I care about the sport in that it has provided me with a nice living for the bulk of my adult life.”
That maybe, but it does nothing to prove in any way the grand conspiracy you claimed to have witnessed.
Surely you’re not alone among the thousands that have been in in “race control” or in a skybox over the years and have been in that position (i.e. within earshot of a NASCAR official ordering a yellow) can you point to one single story to corroborate what you claimed to have witnessed?
Just wanted to drop back in and say a big thank you to everyone that commented on this post who kept it clean and offered up good discussion. I know it got heated at times, and that’s cool, because we are all passionate people. The whole point of this blog is to offer up our own thoughts and opinions and then open up the floor to discussion. We will certainly call folks out from time to time, and you will certainly call us out. But please know that all we don’t mean any ill will towards you if we happen to call you out.
So thanks to all!
Do you not remember Harvick in those days? Jumping over cars to grab Biffle etc. NASCAR had been telling Childress to get him under control and he could not. I don’t thing Harvick thought for a minute they would do it so he forced their hand. The cup race just happened to be the next national touring series event he was entered in so they sat his a$$ down. Never had another problem with him either. At the time he was not what you would call a top line driver, he was in a top line car. Again, if you want evidence on the cautions just watch those old videos or if you ever see one of those drivers at an event just ask them. I still can’t believe you did not know that went on. Heck, go to speedtv.com and ask Robin Miller, even he knows about those.
First of all, Chad I have the most respect for you, as I have only been a #48 fan, and admire your amazing work!
Second of all, a big thanks to sirius 128 as I would die if I couldn’t get my nascar fix EVERYDAY, yes I am that in to it…..
I think that Carl Long deserves a penalty, he knows what is required, all car owners, crew cheifs, and drivers do. There are rules for a reason and Nascar shouldn’t back down and let him go easy because he is a “little guy”.
Keep up the good work, and man I wish I had your email
as I always have nothing but praise for you, you are amazing to listen to on the nascar fan view, the best part of the race is hearing you calm Jimmie down and do it so calmly!
Keep up the good work, and on to the 4th!!!!
One big question I have about this whole ordeal is how badly was the engine damaged due to the overheating/blowing up? Maybe it was within spec when it was installed but not after its on the track failure. If the damage was extensive, or even minor due to the closeness of the infraction, it would be comparable to NASCAR expecting Carl Edwards’ Talladega car to fit the templates post race after it tore down the catchfence.
Also, did Ernie Elliot do anything to motor while it was in his posession or did he just buy it from Ganassi and then turn around and sell it to Carl? I don’t think either EE or Ganassi have any responsibility in this issue mainly because it was a used engine. Who knows how many miles it had on it? If it were 358 c.i. on the dot when it was built, it very easily could be 0.17 c.i. worn out. Besides, I have reservations about the error in measuring a discrepancy that small anyhow.
Finally, I do feel sorry for Carl. NASCAR’s fine is the equivalent of the HP pulling you over and fining you a couple thousand dollars and suspending your license because they clocked you going 35.5 mph in a 35 zone. I’m absolutely sure Carl didn’t intend to cheat. You don’t go to the expense and trouble to gain 0.17 c.i. Assuming a linear relationship between c.i. and hp, 0.17 would bump an 800 hp motor up to 800.38 hp. Not exactly enough juice to put him on the pole.
marc – first, I am not going to give you any specific information about this team or that team as it would be fairly easy for TC & Journo to back into who I am. And just as they are not publically broadcasting who they are, I am not going to publish who I am.
Second, there is not going to be any documentation anywhere that says this crew chief was busted for an illegal part, but NASCAR let him off. Short of any such documentation, your need for proof is not going to be fulfilled.
Finally, you may find it hard to believe, but after 20 years of attending 30+ races/year I simply do not remember every caution flag. This was not my only trip to a NASCAR suite. And honestly, I did not hear Bill Jr say anything. I saw him pick up the phone…he would sit in the top row on the aisle. Then immediately after he hung up, race control began asking the observers for a report on track conditions. The first time through, nobody reported any debris. They asked again. This time, race control asked the folks in turn 2 if the chunk sitting on the apron was debris. The observer replied that he was not sure. Race control then immediately said…”throw it.” It was at Dover. It does not seem that long ago, but it was probably 7-8 years or more.
You are right JD (comment81)
Given the history of this engine, all it went thru in ARCA also, it would be unreasonable to think this engine would be exactly to spec. Longs explanation was reasonable, and next to impossible to be anything else. Most likely the main problem was this particular engine was right at the upper limits of passing tech when new…a small amount of wear and tear would put it over.
I believe even nascar knew that all along. I believe this was aimed directly at Carl Long as a way to rid themselves of the “start and park” teams. “If” it were just to simply send a message, surely the 200 points would do the trick. The money / suspension and refusal to listen to appeals were aimed squarely against Carl Long.
Remember a few weeks ago when nascar was talking about the
“start and park” teams…wanting to do something about it?
I just want to echo what TC said. Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussion today. Everyone remained very civil and they were willing to listen to their fellow commenters and to us. It was especially cool to see commenters having conversations with each other. While we may not always agree with each other, I hope we can foster an arena of mutual respect. Days like today are why we both enjoy the site. Thanks!
KR – “Do you not remember Harvick in those days?”
Um yeah.
“At the time he was not what you would call a top line driver, he was in a top line car.”
A diff of opinion, he had 3 wins at that point and ran under RCR banner.
“Again, if you want evidence on the cautions just watch those old videos or if you ever see one of those drivers at an event just ask them. I still can’t believe you did not know that went on. Heck, go to speedtv.com and ask Robin Miller, even he knows about those.”
Old videos are evidence? So they would show every yellow and why it was thrown?
No, that’s no evidence at all, just as it isn’t now.
Robin Miller? You mean the same Robin Miller who at times seems to go out of his way to bash NASCAR and favor his open wheel bailiwick? No thanks.
That said, I’m haven’t and never will say a yellow has never been tossed in error, but to claim NASCAR has a stated policy to toss them is black helicopter territory.
knobcreekfan – “This was not my only trip to a NASCAR suite. And honestly, I did not hear Bill Jr say anything. I saw him pick up the phone…he would sit in the top row on the aisle.”
Excuse me? Close enough see…
“I have been in the NASCAR/ISC suite when the race was getting boring and Bill Jr picked up the phone and called for a caution. 2 laps later there was something “suspicious” the observer was concerned about in turn 2 at Dover…caution is out!”
So now what it boils down to is you were and are guessing.
You were and are predisposed to believe what you believe so it MUST be so.
I’m far from surprised.
Carl Long did NOT cheat. The man does not have deep pockets like the billion-dollar super teams that receive slaps on the wrist. Carl Long is frustrated, and he did not “trash” the big-shots and engine builder as you say in your editorial! NASCAR cares more about piles of cash than it does for the average little guy who scrapes his money together to race. NASCAR has practically invented the grey area, picking and choosing where and when to enforce their so-called black-and-white rules. I guess it’s easy for NASCAR yes men like Burton and Truex to support NASCAR because it’s their meal ticket, and they drive for big-buck teams. Long was not cheating; it wasn’t even his main engine (.17…come on!), and it was the All-Star race weekend.
Why would NASCAR make an example out of Carl Long? Because they can. This is not a Hendrick or a Roush. Carl has every right to be angry and to criticize a system that has no room for hard-working, independent drivers and continues to spit in the face of tradition and heritage. The fans and level-headed drivers must come together to let NASCAR know that this garbage will not be tolerated. NASCAR is a big bully that needs to be dropped down a few pegs, maybe put out to pasture for good. I, for one, have no intentions of supporting NASCAR in any way, shape, or form EVER again!
Carl said:
“Apparently they didn’t pay attention to what they sold me, or they just didn’t care — one or the other,” Long said of Elliott. “I didn’t think it’d ever wind up being where it is. All I did was buy a part from a guy, with a name, that says I’m legal to go racing. I went to a reputable builder, but he’s not being held responsible. He just told me ‘Good luck.’
“The pistons in the engine was a 4.185 size, which is the maximum limit in our series. And all the paperwork that he showed on them said it was a 4.183. The whole thing was, a mistake happened and I’m the guy that’s got to pay for it.”
This tells me that the engine was probably not legal when it was sold to Carl, or the paperwork was for the wrong engine.
Just pointing out that I don’t think Carl intentionally cheated. To me this is entirely different than Gibbs playing with magnets. Waltrip using fuel additives, Kanus with a deflecting rear window, etc. This is just like killing an ant with a sludge hammer. This is by no way a $200000 fine. And in addition it didn’t give him any competitive advantage as with the magets, fuel and windows. Give me a break!!!!
Ken Bagenstose – “”They want somebody to come and start four teams. Or, maybe they’re just trying to weasel all of us out so they can franchise. I don’t know. I’m not a part of their kings of the round table.”
No, then what do you call an engine that was over the mandated limit?
“Long was not cheating; it wasn’t even his main engine (.17…come on!), and it was the All-Star race weekend.
No matter how many times you tell yourself he didn’t cheat there’s no weaseling out of the fact the engine was outside the limit, a limit BTW that is 350-358ci which means he not only missed the limit he was outside the tolerance all teams are given.
Not his “main engine?” Sure it was, if it hadn’t blown up it would have been in the car at the start of the Open.
Being All Star weekend is immaterial, the event is NASCAR sanctioned as such NASCAR is perfectly correct in enforcing the rules.
“Carl Long is frustrated, and he did not “trash” the big-shots and engine builder as you say in your editorial!”
He didn’t?
Then how would you classify this Long quote, “They [NASCAR] want somebody to come and start four teams. Or, maybe they’re just trying to weasel all of us out so they can franchise. I don’t know. I’m not a part of their kings of the round table.”
That’s not trashing NASCAR? Sure it is, he makes a completely unsubstantiated charge that NASCAR is intentionally forcing him or other small teams out.
Where’s his facts? He has none, he has emotion, nothing more.
“I, for one, have no intentions of supporting NASCAR in any way, shape, or form EVER again!”
That may be the case, if so see-ya, but I’ll add I’ve seen the same written and seen the very same people continue to comment on various blogs and forums months and years later.
HENRY, just who should be responsible then?
Long bought it and attempted to race with it… period!
This entire sham of certain segments society shifting blame from the guilty is getting very tiresome.
“This was a big deal, whether Carl meant to do it or not. Every team and driver knows fuel, tires and engines are things you don’t mess with and he apparently inadvertently broke that golden rule.”
Let’s see, Carl unknowingly (most likely) used an incorrect engine — $200000. Waltrip knowingly put in a fuel additive — $100000. Do you mean to tell me that we have had a 100% inflation factor in Nascar fines in 24 months. Don’t tell me there isn’t a “sliding scale” for fines. They just wanted Carl gone. It’ pretty evident to me that Nascar favors the “big boys” in this sport, otherwise, whats the reason behind the “top 35 rule”.
If I though it was someone else’s fault, I’d certainly say it. I would only be defending myself. I don’t think Carl is really trying not to take some blame, he’s just saying that the fine does not fit the crime as I stated in my last post. If they had fined him $100000 like Micky I don’t think the fans would be so pissed off. As it is, this is way off the “sliding scale”
Henry- What we have seen from NASCAR is this gradual escalation of fines for things like this. It is them encouraging teams not to do things by hitting them in their wallet.
As far as the sliding scale comment goes, it was not me that said that. It was the National Stock Car Racing Commission. I happen to agree with their logic though.
Can you give me another example where NASCAR has been particularly hard on a small team? NASCAR fines and penalizes big teams all the time. I pointed some out in my post. I can’t think of any where NASCAR is favoring one type of team over another.
The top-35 rule isn’t meant to penalize small teams it is meant to reward those competitors who compete every weekend and are committed to the sport.
Journo, —- I think you said it all in your first sentance:
Henry- What we have seen from NASCAR is this gradual escalation of fines for things like this. It is them encouraging teams not to do things by hitting them in their wallet.
Would you say “gradual” is 100% increase in less that 2 years.?
Nascar does fine big teams all the time. Why? Because they are the ones cheating. And don’t mind a $100000 fine and a slap on the rist The little guys hardly have the resources to cheat. lol!!!
Jeff Gordon was fined $100000 and 200 points a while back. The board reduced the points to 100 and increased the fine to $150000. We all know the points really ment something to him but money didn’t. So it seems they cut him a deal on that one. “I’ll give you more money you give me back my points”
Journo
“The top-35 rule isn’t meant to penalize small teams it is meant to reward those competitors who compete every weekend and are committed to the sport.”
Do you think #36 is any less committed than #35 , what a joke!!
Marc — Journo
Are you sure you guy’s don’t work for Nascar!!! lol!!!
henry – “Let’s see, Carl unknowingly (most likely) used an incorrect engine — $200000. Waltrip knowingly put in a fuel additive — $100000.”
And you know those two points to be fact, how so? Do you know for a fact Long did what he did intentionally, or by accident?
What we do know for fact is Waltrip’s jet fuel was no accident, however what we don’t know with certainty is who in his organization who the guilty party was.
“They just wanted Carl gone. It’ pretty evident to me that Nascar favors the “big boys” in this sport, otherwise, whats the reason behind the “top 35 rule”.”
Again, for what reason did NASCAR want Long gone? I’ve seen several people with the same thought but not a single valid reason why?
Wanna give it a try?
“I don’t think Carl is really trying not to take some blame, he’s just saying that the fine does not fit the crime as I stated in my last post.”
No, not a bit except when he threw the engine builder under the bus rather than say “I bought it, it sat in the garage for five months and attempted to race with it.”
Henry- Haha. I am sure neither of us work for NASCAR. I can’t speak to the logic behind their decisions for fines, but I think it is clear they are trying to create a no tolerance policy. Whether you agree with that or not I think is the ultimate issue.
Henry – ”
Marc — Journo Are you sure you guy’s don’t work for Nascar!!! lol!!!
I’ll echo Journo, buwawahaha!
Here’s the deal I’ll make for ya Henry.
You go through my five years of blogging on and about NASCAR and make a decision rather than the typical (typical of someone who’s run out of valid arguments) off the cuff assertion I work for NASCAR.
While there you might even note I accept no paid advertisement in an effort to remain “neutral.”
I haven’t been rated as one of the top NASCAR bloggers for a reason and it’s not because of being a shill for anyone.
No, not a bit except when he threw the engine builder under the bus rather than say “I bought it, it sat in the garage for five months and attempted to race with it.”
If someone sold you something that wasn’t per the spec. they said it was, what would you do? You paid good money for it, they said it was within spec. Would you just set there and say, well it’s just my fault for being so stupid. No,,,, you would raise H___ about it. as most anyone would.