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On Tuesday the National Stock Car Racing Commission, NASCAR’s version of an appellate court, upheld most of the penalties against driver Carl Long.
In their ruling the Commission upheld the 12-race suspension, but only to the Cup Series garage, the $200,000 fine of crew chief Charles Swing and loss of owner and driver points. The Commission said if Swing is unable to pay the fine it may not fall to Long.
From the start of this thing, I can honestly say I have had very little pity for Carl Long. The minute he entered his car into the race a few weeks ago he agreed to abide by NASCAR’s rules. These rules are spelled out very clearly, in a very detailed rule book that Carl Long has.
He knew the expectations and he knew the consequences and he did not follow them either by accident or on purpose (I’m not going to try to determine intent and NASCAR shouldn’t have to either). He is now paying the price.
What was Carl Long’s response to this? It wasn’t the maturity you would expect of a 41-year-old. No, we got name calling, off the wall accusations, an inability to take responsibility and conspiracy theories. I never much thought about Carl Long before this, but I now have very little respect for the man.
He has tried to place blame on respected engine builder Ernie Elliott. Let me remind you this was a motor Elliott bought used from Chip Ganassi Racing, and then sold to Long not last month, but in January. The last time I checked if I buy a used car and something goes wrong five months later I don’t blame the car dealer that sold me the car. Ernie Elliott has no responsibility for that motor once it is sold, much like that car dealer. Who knows who has been working on that motor, or what has been done with that motor since it was sold to Long FIVE MONTHS ago.
Ernie Elliott has zero responsibility in this situation. And I am disgusted that Carl Long would trash this man the way he has. Ernie Elliott has built engines for years and has never had an issue like this. We certainly never saw this problem arise when he was building motors for Ganassi; and I assure you plenty of Ganassi’s motors were inspected.
Elliott was not the only person he trashed though. He referred to John Capels, Jack Housby and George Silbermann, all very respected businessmen in their own right, as “big bullies.”
He then went to on to attack both Brian France and Mike Helton. I know these are controversial men among many ardent fans, but they don’t deserve to have their integrity questioned.
And then he went on to attack the business as a whole, one which as far as I can tell has earned him a very good living. I saw in one article he estimated he was making about $100,000 a year. Now this isn’t to say he hasn’t earned that, but that is good money that not too many people in this country make. Especially to go racing every weekend.
Long and many others have argued that he can now no longer make a living doing what he knows. This is a farce. He works for a team that not only sometimes has two Cup Series teams but also a Nationwide team (remember he is not suspended from the Nationwide garage). He also doesn’t have to travel to the track for those weeks he is on suspension. Does this mean his present role with Front Row Motorsports is going to have to change for a little while? Definitely. But does it mean he can’t earn a living? Absolutely not.
At the end of the day the only reason this has become the issue that it has become is because Long can’t afford to pay the penalty. In instances where other teams have been issued large or aggressive penalties for things like jet-fuel additives in the fuel system (Micheal Waltrip Racing), or magnets behind the gas pedal (Joe Gibbs Racing) (among other incidents) we saw a lot people, a lot of fans calling these teams cheaters.
This happens to a small team and it is just the evil empire trying to stick it to the small guy. I think the release from the commission said it best:
And guess what? Drivers get this. Other than to sympathize with his lack of funding, I haven’t heard a single driver disagree with NASCAR issuing a penalty (Martin Truex and Jeff Burton here). They know if this were their team, they would face just as stiff a penalty. I know this is something many people don’t believe, but it’s true, NASCAR has proved many times before they are willing to fine the big teams (Chad Knaus was ejected from Speedweeks and then suspended for six races in 2006; also refer to earlier mentioned penalties).
This was a big deal, whether Carl meant to do it or not. Every team and driver knows fuel, tires and engines are things you don’t mess with and he apparently inadvertently broke that golden rule.
He wanted to run with the big dogs on Sunday, but clearly could not handle the responsibility and consequences that can go along with that (i.e. $200,000 fines). In my opinion if Carl didn’t have the resources, for whatever reason, to make sure every part of that car was in spec he didn’t deserve to be out on that race track.
He now needs to bite the bullet and serve his penalty with integrity.
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on Jun 4th, 2009 at 12:44 am
Can’t say that I disagree with you much on this. Which makes my next statement sound a little contradicting.
I think they were way to hard on him. For starters he is the driver and not the crew chief. You cited about that Chad Knaus was ejected for 6 races. He is a crew chief, not a driver.
I did not read Martin Truex Jr. or Jeff Burton’s statements (I like both of them), but I am sorry, they are not under the hood take engine measurements before getting in it and driving.
If this same incident happened to the #48 team, I highly doubt you would see Jimmie Johnson sitting on the sidelines for 12 races. Chad might be gone for the rest of the season, Jimmie might get a big fat fine but you will NEVER see any of the big names get suspended for 12 races. It will never happen. To many sponsorship $$$$$ and fans to let that happen.
I am actually just itchin’ to see how NASCAR punishes a big team now.
All the rest of the penalties I can go along with. Maybe even more money. I think the crew chief, engineer or whoever should be suspended for the year so they can think about it.
And I think I am with you, I know nothing about Carl Long. But his first impression on me has …..well….left an impression.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 4:38 am
Racing News Digest, there’s one difference you didn’t note. Long is the owner the team, Johnson if in the same situation probably wouldn’t be suspended as he’s not the owner of the #48. To say nothing of J.J not being in a position to buy an engine for the #48.
On the other hand J. Gordon is at least a partial owner of it and that would raise in interesting question if the same scenario ever came up.
On the post itself, I agree whole-heartedly. The blame falls on one one but Long, and his little tizzy-fit of name calling reminds me very much like another recant driver banished who decided to act the fool in the Lowes infield.
That said, one thing does trouble me.
In NASCAR’s statement they were quoted as saying:
“The NASCAR representative argued that NASCAR has and continues to consider an oversized engine to be one of the most egregious of rules violations, warranting the harshest of penalties. The last penalty notices issued in NASCAR’s top series for an oversized engine were in 1991 and included 12-race suspensions in the series and a sizeable fine for its day.”
At this point I have not seen any other quotes that include the fact the ‘91 suspension was reduced on appeal to 4 weeks.
As it sits NASCAR is being disingenuous, at best, in referring to the previous penalty as being an example of consistency.
If anyone has seen a quote from a NASCAR rep that includes a ref to the penalty reduction fine, if not NASCAR has screwed the pooch.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 6:01 am
since you mentioned jimmie johnson….why wasn’t jeff gordon suspended for 6 races when knaus was. jeff gordon is the car owner just as carl long is. if the same issue should surface with tony stewart, do you truely believe he would be suspended for 12 races? no matter what you believe, you can not deny the possibility exists that the oversized engine was not intentional. blatant cheating such as waltrip and gibbs fines are by no means compare. in my opinion, this is a very serious injustice.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 6:04 am
NASCAR ALWAYS PICKS ON THE LITLE GUY
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 6:33 am
Scott: I’m curious to hear what your reasoning is behind saying they always pick on the little guy? Do you have examples? And what does NASCAR have to gain by picking on the little guy? In this case, they were not picking on Carl Long, he broke the rule and he got punished. End of story.
Michael: NASCAR has said that they do not judge intent. If you broke the rule, you broke the rule. As Carl Long may have attempted, ignorance is not a defense. If it was, then every time a team broke a rule, they would just say they didn’t mean to and they didn’t know they were breaking the rule. Sorry, but that doesn’t fly. It doesn’t matter whether it was blatant or not, the rule was still broken and Long is subject to whatever penalty NASCAR hands down.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 6:35 am
Throughout this whole deal, I’ve been conflicted on whether NASCAR went too far or not, but I keep coming to the same conclusion. What about a precedent? If they don’t hit Carl Long with a big penalty, then what happens when the next infraction comes along? The same thing applies if the penalties are changed under appeal. Of course, this is assuming that NASCAR will apply their penalties consistently.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 6:40 am
Last season Robbie Gordon was penalized for a violation of the car body rules. His penalties were overturned on appeal when it was determined Dodge gave his team the wrong body parts. Shouldn’t have his fab guys checked the parts? In this case the supplier was to blame for the infraction. One could argue since Ganassi and then Elliot supplied the motor the same treatment should apply here. However, NASACAR has proven once again there are different rules for different teams.
Is .017 cu in any real advantage? Is it a bigger advantage than say jet fuel or a missing oil tank lid? I seriously doubt it. Yet these teams were caught got a comparative slap on the wrist.
I understand the need for zero tolerance. But zero tolerance must be applied fairly and evenly for NASCAR to maintain credibility. One should not get the death penalty for parking ticket while another gets a parking ticket for murder.
Red Kneck
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 6:51 am
Red Kneck: In Robby Gordon’s case, the penalties were not overturned. He was given back the points, but the fine was actually increased from $100K to $150K. And in his case there was no way for his guys to check the nose, because it had the correct part number on it.
Blaming Long’s engine problem on Ernie Elliott and possibly Ganassi is just passing the buck. It was Long’s engine, he owned it. It is his responsiblity to make sure it was legal. It doesn’t matter whether it is 0.17 in. too big, or 100 in. too big. Over the line is over the line.
And saying Waltrip and Carl Edwards’ teams got a slap on the wrist for the penalties you mentioned is not accurate. Waltrip’s crew chief AND team director were suspended indefinitely and removed from Daytona. The team was docked 100 driver and owner points and fined $100K (the largest ever fine levied at the time). In the oil tank lid situation, the #99 lost 100 driver and owner points, was fined $100K, and crew chief Bob Osborne was suspended for six races. Don’t make it sound like they were given a small fine and handed probation. Those are very serious penalties.
The only reason everyone seems to have such a big problem here is that NASCAR wasn’t “fair” with Carl Long. They were absolutely fair. Long and his team had an engine that didn’t conform, and NASCAR penalized them just like they would have penalized ANY other team who did the same thing. The rules shouldn’t apply differently to Long just because he is low budget.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 7:44 am
I don’t think I have much of an opinion on whether the punishment was too harsh. If he purchased the engine, then it’s his responsibility to ensure that it’s within specification.
The question I have to raise though, is what if NASCAR pulls Tony Stewart’s or Ryan Newman’s engines apart and determines that the engine is too large, who gets punished? To the best of my knowledge, Stewart-Haas leases the engines from Hendrick rather than buying them. My understanding is that the engines are ’sealed’ to prevent tampering, and as far as tuning goes, Hendrick provides an engine tuner as well. It seems to me that Tony really has no choice but to stay out of the engines provided to him, unless Rick Hendrick allows Stewart-Haas to open them up to verify the critical dimensions.
I can hardly envision that situation coming up, but if it did, who would the blame fall on?
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 7:57 am
T C are you sure they would have penalized a big name driver twelve races for a miniscule .017 infraction? Please! Wake up. That is what has all us ordinary Joes up in the air.
THE AMOUNT OF THE PENALTIES IS EXCESSIVE.
NASCAR would be well advised to post exactly what punishments will be for every infraction possible. No more waiting around for the next slap on the wrist or record setting punishments. NASCAR says they do not try to decipher intent on infractions but we as race fans do and when it is clear that Carl Long could’ve put that car with the oversized engine on the trailer and left the track without a NASCAR inspection then why the hell didn’t he? Because he was not cheating!!!!! His engine was too big (lets not forget the overage here .017 of a cubic inch) yes but in my opinion he did not know that. He was outside the rules but not intentionally. If NASCAR would take that into consideration the penalties should’ve been much less. But that is not the case.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 8:05 am
TC, I agree to disagree with you on a couple of points.
1) When the 55 was caught with jet fuel, The driver was not suspended and he was the owner on record.
2) When Robbie was caught with the nose issue tne driver was not suspended and he was the owner of record
3) when Carl was caught with the oil tank lid missing the driver nor the owner Jack Roush were suspended.
In the three examples above NASCAR did not suspend the driver or the owner, they suspended the crew cheifs for those teams. In Carls case they suspended the owner,driver and the crew cheif. I personally feel this is where NASCAR went wrong. It seems that if any of the major players in NASCAR make a major mistake, the drivers and the owners are never suspended, just the crew cheif, team leader or engeers.
I think this is where NASCAR went wrong on this one.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 8:07 am
Not really gonna comment on the fairness of the penalty (I stated my case on the 5/20 post comment #56). I’m a firm believer that “intent to cheat” must play into penalty severity…even in supposed zero tolerance governing.
Now, I am more curious of the willingness (ref Michael #3 above) of a top tier driver to own a chunck of another team (ie JG owning portion of #48) and his/her liability in an instance similar to CL’s.
Like a plaintiff’s lawyer going after any person or corp involved in the mfg of equipment, regardless of time or direct vs indirect involvement, in the case of an industrial accident. Difference here is NASCAR is the arresting officer, judge and jury all wrapped up in one tight knit pkg. But hey, NASCAR created the playing field and one must abide by their rules….or “play” elsewhere.
Nuff said.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 8:08 am
Ryan: Is it clear that what he did wasn’t intentional? Just because he said he didn’t know, doesn’t mean that in essence he could have known all along. That is the problem with intent. There is no way to know if the team really knew or not, and NASCAR isn’t going to waste time trying to figure that out. This isn’t a court of law. You break the rule, you get punished. If NASCAR is going to set a precedent and try and determine intent here just to please the upset fans, then they have to try and determine intent every time. And when that starts happening teams will just claim they didn’t know the part was illegal.
The penalties were not excessive, they were fairly levied to a CUP team that BROKE THE RULES.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 8:12 am
I agree that Carl Long is 100% responsible, but I also believe that the penalty is outrageous. NASCAR needs to think about what they are doing with penalties like this. Besides angering a lot of fans, it is making a statement that unless you and your team members are rich then don’t bother competing. I bet it will be a lot more difficult and costlier to buy/sell engines now.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 8:14 am
As a small business person I keep records of the most trivial of items. Long bought/leased his engine from Elliot. If it had been modified by Long’s people there should be a paper trail. If I keep receipts for a dozen guitar picks I am sure Long would have a receipt for a piston ring.
Basically there were ways for Long to prove he didn’t tamper with the engine. He didn’t provide that proof. And considering the timeline he should have had that proof handy. I hate seeing the small guy get a boot in the arse, but it happens and is sometimes deserved.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 8:16 am
Stevec & everyone else who has commented on the ownership suspension: Guess what folks, the last time NASCAR discovered a team had an oversized engine, both the OWNER & the CREW CHIEF were suspended twelve races. Now you will come back at me with the fact that the penalty was reduced to four races on appeal (Marc), but that was an entirely different appeals board (it was 1991). Just because one appeals board resinds part of the suspension, doesn’t mean this one has to as well. The United States Supreme Court doesn’t hand out the same judgements now that they did almost 20 years ago. This appeals board decided there was no reason to amend the penalty.
Another thing to consider in this situation, is NASCAR hasn’t dealt with this type of violation since 1991. You want to know why? Because the teams know you don’t screw with engines. When NASCAR discovers this type of an infraction, they have to come down heavy on the team. So in this case they felt it necessary to suspend the owner, driver, and crew chief to send a message: DON’T MESS WITH ENGINES! They absolutely made an example out of Carl Long, and rightly so.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 8:26 am
The only aspect of your post that I take some issue with your holding Ernie Elliot blameless. I don’t know what happened to the engine once it was sold (was it opened and modified, or did it sit untouched on the shop floor for five months?), nor do I know the procedures teams follow in testing components purchased from outside sources (for example, are teams required to make sure the tires they get from Goodyear and the gas they get from Sunoco are compliant?).. but if I purchased an engine from someone, I’d sure expect that the engine was compliant.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 8:49 am
Who paid the shipping on the kool-aid from Daytona. This whole deal is BS. As far as what Long said, I don’t see anything in his words that aren’t true. As far as Martin and Truex, what do you think they are going to say. It is like calling your boss’s wife ugly, it may be true but you don’t do it, you keep your mouth shut and protect your own a$$. He isn’t bringing in any money so they can make an example of him and not offend any of the cash cows. I would love to see what would happen in the Tony Stewart scenario above.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 8:51 am
Two guys from the show “AX Men” started a website to raise cash for a legal battle. They are being charged with illegally removing logs from public waterways. This is seen by boaters as a helpful thing, and the lumber is very valuable for the man.
My point is, Carl Long if you are reading this start a little website with a paypal address. All of us who would love to see you back at the track will throw in what we can to see you back there.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 9:02 am
I was on Carl’s side until he opened his mouth. My main concern was NASCAR taking his ability to making a living away but that clearly isn’t the case as he isn’t banned from Busch events.
I do think NASCAR has created a double standard here though when issuing suspensions. The CC was suspended, fair enough. The owner DeeDee Long was suspended, fair enough. The driver was suspended, this is where I get confused.
I agree, the rules were broken & there should be a flat penalty whether it’s a Hendrick team that broke the rules or Tommy Badwin. But when has a driver been suspended for this type of infraction?
This is where I need some help. I read somewhere that the reason Carl Long is being suspended as a driver is because of his intimate relationship within the team (I can’t remember where I read this or maybe even heard it on TV & want to know if anyone else has heard this). Essentially Carl Long is the team so they are suspending him as the driver.
Isn’t NASCAR creating a special penalty by suspending the driver because of Carl’s unique circumstances? Could this be construed as, yeah, NASCAR is picking on the little guy by suspending the driver in this case since this is the only way that they could get to Carl?
If this same thing happened to the #39. Would Newman be suspended? Tony Stewart should be as he is listed as the owner of that team. He also happens to be the driver of the #14 but he would be suspended as the owner of the #39 not because he is a driver.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 9:18 am
I see the point about Carl breaking the rules. I understand that the engine is something you don’t touch. But don’t most cheaters break the rules to gain an advantage? In this case what was the advantage? It has been reported/speculated that the engine was down 50hp. In the Showdown practice, Long was 31/35 on the speed charts, almost 10 mph off of the top speed (Allmendinger), 7mph off of 15th (Logano), and 3.5 mph behind 28th (Papis – the last “serious” contender there). I don’t see an advantage there – which goes to intent. Things are never black and white.
I respect NASCAR (did I just put those 2 words together?) for trying to maintain the integrity of the sport (whatever that means to them). I still think that the penalty and fine are to severe and should have been reduced. Carl has one more appeal he can go through. Let’s hope the Commissioner can see the gray.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 9:32 am
tc, you did not address why jeff gordon was not suspended as a car owner when chad knaus was. i believe he should be punished but intent does matter. in law if you intend to kill a person it is murder, if your intent was not to kill it is manlauter and the punishment is lesser. i can not understand how nascar can punish carl harsher than a team that uses jet fuel. i respect your opinion but strongly disagree. ultimately, this discussion would be a mute point if nascar had a clear policy on rule infractions.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 9:34 am
How come the big name drivers get to keep racing when they get busted, but people like Carl Long get suspended for 12 races?
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 9:59 am
The thing that people are forgetting here is that you will never see a penalty like this against a “big name team/driver” because you will never see an infraction like this from them. Not that they do not “push the rules.” But NASCAR does not publish the results of EVERY measurement of EVERY car from EVERY inspections. So quite simply, if they do not want that driver/team/owner penalized, they just do not tell anyone they failed the test.
.017 of a difference is less than 5/1000ths of 1% variance. That is a VERY small variance. In the great push for increased horsepower, I find it virtually impossible to believe that no other team has crossed the 350 cu in line in 18 years. With all due respect to them, I just find it hard to believe that these engine builders are THAT good that 100% of the time they can get right up to 350 cu in and NEVER go over.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 10:20 am
I respect the facts of the Carl Long case, and I know all about the penalities that have been assessed to other teams. They have been well documented. Being a NASCAR fan, Here’s what is sad about this deal. NASCAR, for any number of reasons, is losing fans. This is not good. My point is this: The big teams are not going to be the only players in the game. Hence , NASCAR needs to be somewhat flexible in their assessing fines to the people they need to put on a show each week. Why don’t they just say they will assess penalities on a case by case system, and that’s it. They can fine and penalize all they want, and sooner or later criticism will crop up anyway.
Personally, I feel Carl is pretty innocent (like him or not) because he could have just packed up & left the track after the blow-up. He had nothing to gain by letting the engine be inspected.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 10:31 am
windowlicker: I haven’t heard that reasoning about Long being suspended. So I’m not sure there.
I also can’t comment about every owner being suspended, ie Jeff Gordon, Jack Roush, Tony Stewart. But it would appear that NASCAR is setting a precedent here that they may use in the future. So if you are a Tony Stewart or Jeff Gordon fan, don’t come complaining to us when they get suspended. You asked for it…
Robyn & Michael: Intent may matter to you, but NASCAR has said they aren’t going to make decisions that way. You may not agree with that, and that’s fine. But these guys have to play by NASCAR’s rules. And like I’ve said before, this isn’t a court of law.
knobcreekfan: Thank you for the black helicopters/conspiracy theory comment. The favoritism that everyone thinks exists just isn’t true. And NASCAR says engines need to be between 350 and 358 cu. in. That is an 8 cu. in. tolerance, plus they allow another .09 cu. in. on top of the 358. So yes, it is possible to believe that this hasn’t happened in 18 years.
I don’t understand why so many of you are quick to give Carl Long a pass because there doesn’t appear to be intent. Does the fact that there may not have been intent change the fact that he broke the rule? You complain now about NASCAR having different penalties in each case, well think what would happen if they attempted to start judging intent. The penalties would be all over the board. And how do they handle a situation like Gibbs with the magnets? Gibbs claimed it was rogue engine shop employees. Michael Waltrip did the same with the jet fuel. So should they not get penalized as an organization for the actions of a few that they (management) claim they weren’t aware of?
And you say you want equal penalties, yet you complain about Carl Long being treated like a big team. When he showed up to a Cup event to race, he agreed to be treated like a Cup team. If you can’t handle that, don’t race in the Cup Series.
Also, to everyone saying that NASCAR is just trying to push the little guys out, what would be the reasoning behind that? Are they afraid the little guys are going to rise up and overthrow them? Please. People keep saying that, yet have no evidence or reasoning to support it.
If you want to call us NASCAR homers, or that we are drinking their “kool-aid” thats fine. But if you look back over our short history, you’ll see that when we find it necessary, we criticize NASCAR. This just happens to be one of those cases where we agree. You break the rule, you should be penalized. And you shouldn’t be given special treatment because you “didn’t know” or “didn’t mean” to do it. To me, those sound like excuses.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 10:41 am
Michael- NASCAR is not a court of law, they are a sanctioning and they are under zero obligation to prove intent. I don’t know how they would do that anyway. Are they going to have trials? It’s silly.
As far as why Jeff Gordon was not suspended, that is because the infraction was not an egregious one like this. Should Michael Waltrip have been suspended? You could probably make an argument for that. But the Jeff Gordon/Chad Knaus situation and this one are two completely different rule violations and therefore deserve two completely different penalties.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 11:12 am
Folks,
The funny, ironic and sad part of it is, relatively speaking, that if Carl Long was racing F1 and he inadvertently left his helmet visor up during a pit stop on the Thursday practice session three days prior to a Grand Prix he would be fined $500K and no one who think twice about it. Heck, Team McLaren was fined $100 million, that’s right $100,000,000 dollars for hiring an engineer from Ferrari who just happened to be smart enough to understand how to make his former teams car go fast. Maybe carry out documents wasn’t so smart.
The moral here is: be careful who you buy engines from and who you hire, because after all you are responsible for who and what you purchase.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 11:21 am
I would say you certainly are a NASCAR butt smootcher to trash this guy as he is being keel hauled for being a broke ass racer with a lot of heart. (by the way….that describes most of us) The violation is not even of any consequece and completely beyond the guys control. Both Ganassi and Elliot should step up and support Carl.
Carl Long’s crime here is passion for racing and trust of others.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 11:33 am
T.C. and Journo I am going to do something here than others likely will not. I am going to admit that I am a hypocrite.
If it were Kyle Busch’s team I’d be calling for their heads and laughing about the penalty, it’s because I can’t stand the little worm. For Carl Long I feel bad for the guy and want to see him race.
So my point of view is that I want equal penalties, but I don’t want to see Carl Long punished. It makes no sense, but it’s how I feel.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 11:34 am
tc, please explain to us how the engine size is measured. is it easy/hard to do?
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 11:42 am
T.C. – I’m cool with length of Long’s suspension, if fact, he probably should have been parked for the rest of the Cup season. My issue is with the $200K fine. It should have been more like the $50K Long might have received had he won the Sprint Open, which was the race (practice/qualifying) that the offense occurred.
However, it sounds like Long got a bit heated up in the appeals hearing and said some things he shouldn’t have. Long needs to remember that its NASCAR’s show and they make and enforce their rules as they see fit.
If NASCAR gave Long a pass for his big motor, then other independents like Finch, Parsons, Cope, et. al. would be tempted to take that as a challenge to test NASCAR’s resolve on this issue. After all, these guys are slugging it out to make the shows week to week.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 11:56 am
Ron: He may be a broke ass racer, but he is a broke ass racer that broke the rule. And the violation wasn’t beyond his control. He could have opened it up and checked it just like NASCAR did.
Also, I don’t remember trashing Carl at all during this process. We’ve commented on his actions, and called it like we see it. I don’t remember attacking him as a person or as a driver.
And finally, if you want to call us agreeing with NASCAR “butt smooching,” that’s fine. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. Apparently we aren’t allowed to agree with a NASCAR decision, and whether you believe it or not, we have called out NASCAR before. Here are just a few examples:
http://www.thenascarinsiders.com/2009/05/14/nascars-poor-response-to-positive-drug-tests/
http://www.thenascarinsiders.com/2009/05/11/hey-nascar-we-need-a-banned-substances-list/
http://www.thenascarinsiders.com/2009/02/01/final-thoughts-on-truck-series-rule-changes/
http://www.thenascarinsiders.com/2008/09/18/you-call-that-a-penalty/
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 11:57 am
Big Bill and Bill Jr. understood you had to take care of the racers. The people in power now do not seem to remember that. Equal fines are as idiotic as zero tolerance, circumstances are different in every case. If one of the big teams does it, by all means burn the a new one because they have the resources and ability to prevent it. If it is a small team you handle it the way they did, you take the parts, tell them not to let it happen again, and put them on probation. And then make sure they can get to the next race. Those guys are there for the love of it, not just to make money and when the fad passes and the money dries up they will be the only ones left. If Bill Jr. had treated small teams that way I doubt Childress, Elliot, or any of the 80’s drivers would have stayed around.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 11:58 am
It’s funny you ask Michael. I actually explained that in Ask The Insiders Wednesday last week:
http://www.thenascarinsiders.com/2009/05/26/ask-the-insiders-wednesday-25/
See question #2.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
K.R.: Nobody said Carl can’t race anymore. After he’s served his suspension, he can continue racing as he sees fit. Also, I believe that since his penalty only bars him from the Cup garage, he could probably still drive in the CWTS or NNS.
On one hand people want NASCAR to have a penalty and fine schedule laid out, then they say that they aren’t being fair to Carl and he should be treated special because he is low on cash. So which do you want?
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
TC Quote – Blaming Long’s engine problem on Ernie Elliott and possibly Ganassi is just passing the buck. It was Long’s engine, he owned it. It is his responsiblity to make sure it was legal. It doesn’t matter whether it is 0.17 in. too big, or 100 in. too big. Over the line is over the line.
TC, you are in the game so I have to defer to you, but I have little different take on it. It is impossible to know whether or not Long did anything after he got the piece from EE or if EE did anything after getting it from Ganassi; however, EE allegedly gave Long paperwork showing it to be legal. Long should not have to open up a new engine to make sure it is in spec. Do you then Stewart Hass checks every motor they lease from Hendrick? My guess is that their contract prohibits it.
How is this situation any different? Carl takes the motor out of the equation by buying a piece (with documentation) from a reputable builder. He did all a reasonable person should do.
I used to race at the local short tracks. I don’t know anything about motors. I found a motor man, told him I wanted a legal motor, and he built it. Had I been found illegal, I would be responsible for putting the car on the track that way, but I would have blamed the motor guy, and rightfully so, since I had picked a reputable builder to build it legal.
Assuming Long did not touch the engine after purchasing it, EE and Ganassi should man up and pay the fine, or the court of public opinion should convict them as well.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
Glad to see you wrote the post and backed up your views on the Carl Long subject. We agree Carl Long should be punished, but disagree that “entire penalty” fits the crime.
I’m only disappointed that you addressed very briefly “all parts on the car” in last paragraph. A debate about “correct and accurate specifications” on parts from 3rd party vendors would be good.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
KP: Since there is no way to determine if Long did anything to the USED engine, plus the fact that he’d owned it for five months before it was taken at Charlotte, how can we still hold EE or Ganassi responsible? Doesn’t there have to be some sort of statute of limitations? Maybe the engine was legal when Carl bought it. But maybe subsequent engine work or damage is what caused it to be too large. You cannot say EE can do anything about that.
An engine leasing program, like you mentioned, is a completely different situation. While Stewart would get fined in, I would imagine there is a stipulation in the contract about penalties for illegal engines or parts. Since Stewart-Haas isn’t allowed to open them up, Hendrick has to assume that responsibility.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 12:44 pm
I want equal fines across the board. You break rule X you get fine X. I just don’t understand the driver suspension for this infraction. This is not a precedent incident. in 1991, the owner & crew chief were suspended for the same rules violation, not the driver.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 12:56 pm
Without sealed motors, it is impossible to know. And I do not think sealed motors is the way to go. It is a matter of right and wrong and personal responsibility. 5 months is a long time. Long may have opened the motor up, something else may have happened, who knows what. But if EE represented the motor as legal (and I have not read any quotes that refute Long’s assertion), he bears some risk. On the flip side, if I buy a used car, I have it inspected. However, inspecting a used car and opening up a Cup motor are 2 different animals.
Unfortunately Long made what appears to be a bad business decision and must pay the price. I just don’t think EE and Ganassi should get off Scott-free.
This question will forever go unanswered, but I wonder if JPM or another Ganassi raced an illegal motor. Another question is if you are going to cheat, but a hog in there. How is .17 going to make a difference, especially when you are down 50 HP on the dyno according to Long.
In short it is a bad situation. You can argue severity, but NASCAR had little choice. I just don’t think Long is the only culpable party.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
Windowlicker: For someone who rages like a drunken sailor, you are very insightful and perceptive.
My question for those who say NASCAR is trying to break the little guy is: Why? Why would NASCAR want fewer competitors? Do you think it wants the embarrassment of not being able to field 43 cars?
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
T.C. Who gets suspended? Hendrick or Stewart. It would have to be Stewart because regardless of contracts etc. he would be the one that put the car on the track. Windowlicker, that kind of thinking is what gets honor students kicked out of school for giving a friend a tylenol. All situations are different. So it is being suggested here that Carl took and engine he bought from a ruputable builder, tore it completely down, had it machined/modified to where it was .017 too big, and put it back together and raced it. If that is the case then he deserves all the penalties for stupidity not cheating. As far as racing again it is kind of like getting back with an ex-wife. If they will screw you over once they will do it again so if he is smart and still wants to drive he needs to run ARCA.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
Journo wrote #27 above: “As far as why Jeff Gordon was not suspended, that is because the infraction was not an egregious one like this.”
OK, I have to admit I had to look up the word “egregious”. It means conspicuous, conspicuously bad, or flagrant.
Now to determine if the crime was egregious (or not), one would have to decide if there was intent or flagrancy. Ummm I’m pretty sure Carl, Ernie, Chip and Sir Charles Swing weren’t shootin for 50 more hp (let alone 50 less) when engine specimen “A” was assembled. Chad Knaus, on the other hand (as smart as he is) has been known to on more than one occasion tweak, message, stretch the envelope sometimes stepping over the line to gain an advantage rather egregiously w/ much less severe consequences
I will make a bold prediction here. Much the same way NASCAR hired Gary Nelson to be the technical R&D director. He often pushed and exceeded the envelope as a one time Hendrick crew chief. If you can’t catch him….hire him. I predict one more infraction by Knaus and NASCAR will tell Hendick “give up Chad and we’ll call it even”.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
T.C. YOU HAVE ASSUMED I WAS SPEAKING DIRECTLY TO YOU (YOU ARE WAY TOO EMBEDDED IN NASCAR’S CORPORATE (deleted) FOR ME TO DO THAT) I WAS COMMENTING ON THE BASHING OF LONG BY THE WRITER OF THE ARTICLE, UNLESS THAT IS YOU ALSO.
LET ME ALSO SAY THAT .17 OF AN INCH IS NOT SOMETHING A RACER WOULD KNOW ABOUT EVEN IF HE PUMPED THE ENGINE HIMSELF WITH COMMONLY AVAILABLE TEST METHODS. THAT KIND OF TOLERANCE COULD ONLY BE DETERMINED THROUGH AN ENGINE TEAR DOWN OR A VERY UNCOMMON MEASUREMENT DEVICE NOT GENERALLY AVAILABLE. BOTTOM LINE IS THAT GANASSI AND ELLIOT OFFED SOME USED UP JUNK TO THIS GUY CLAIMNG IT TO BE LEGAL.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 2:11 pm
Ron: I know you were speaking about MY PARTNER Journo, but that doesn’t make a difference. We are of the same opinion on this one. That doesn’t change anything. And I still don’t know how you come up with the opinion that the post is “bashing” Carl. You find me one sentence that is bashing Carl.
And I’m not “embedded” anywhere. Just because I work in the sport doesn’t mean I feel one way or the other about NASCAR. They are who they are.
The fact that the engine was only .17 over makes no difference. Over is over my friend. And Ernie Elliott and Ganassi didn’t offer up a used piece of junk to Carl Long claiming it to be something it wasn’t. First, Ganassi has absolutely no responsibility in this situation, as they sold the engine to Ernie. Their responsiblity ended there. Moving on down the line, Ernie has no responsbility either, because he sold Long the engine FIVE MONTHS ago. Who knows what has happened to that engine since then. Ernie gave Carl a spec sheet on the engine when he sold it to him, so something tells me Ernie knew it was legal at the time. But subsequent engine work or damage may have caused the problems. You just don’t know.
And I will let it slide this time, but in the future, ease up on the CAPS lock key when typing your comments.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 2:25 pm
Ron- I don’t believe I bashed Carl. Everything I referenced in the post were things Carl said. I then went on to point out how disappointed I was that was the line he took. It was very childish, the name calling and everything else that went along with his rant. If that is what you consider bashing though, by all means I was bashing the guy.
As far as either of us being NASCAR “butt kissers” all I can say is I have written several posts on this site disagreeing with NASCAR. Please feel free to reference TC’s earlier reply to your comment if you do not believe me.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 2:25 pm
K.R. “Windowlicker, that kind of thinking is what gets honor students kicked out of school for giving a friend a tylenol.”
Please clarify K.R. Is my thinking good thinking or poor thinking?
If you are comparing me to an honor student, I thank you. If you are saying that I would kick an honor student out of school for rendering aid to an achy classmate, then I do not thank you. I use Goody’s powders anyway.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
TC, we are just going to have to agree to disagree on the culpability of EE and Ganassi. You jump to the conclusion that there is not culpability whatsoever. While I admit that there is no way to ever resolve the matter, assuming EE sold the engine with a build sheet showing the motor was legal and further assuming that Carl did not touch the inside of the motor, EE certainly is without clean hands. The same goes for Ganassi.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
KP- Chip Ganassi sold Ernie Elliott a used motor. What Ernie was going to do with that motor was out of their concern and responsibility. Ultimately when Ernie sold that motor, it was out of his hands. Like I mention in the post, do you blame a car dealer when the used car you bought breaks down five months after you bought it? Ernie can’t be held responsible for something he had no control or oversight of. He doesn’t know what happened to that motor between the time he sold it and when it failed inspection. Would you want to be held responsible for something you sold to someone five months ago? I wouldn’t. It would be a very different story if Carl had leased the motor from Ernie. Then I would say he deserves responsibility. Ernie has even said if that was the case then he would deserve the blame.
And that is a whole lot of assuming you are doing. You know what happens when you assume.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
KR: I agree with you about Stewart being suspended. He is the owner and is responsible for the car. But since the engines from Hendrick are sealed, Stewart needs some sort of recourse in case the engine isn’t legal. He obviously can’t tear into it to check. So I would imagine the contract has provisions for that.
And we are not suggesting that Carl bought the engine, tore it down, and machined it until it was illegal. Is that a possibility? Certainly. But we aren’t saying that is what happened. The point we are trying to make, is it doesn’t matter why the engine was too big, Long is still responsible for it. Intentional or not.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 3:48 pm
Windowlicker, I am refering to the aero tolerance policy. Usually once a year you see a good student get expelled for giving a friend or even having tylenol. Zero tolerance means they get treated like a dealer selling meth. My point is that it does not work, all situations are different. I feel like Robby Gordon got screwed on the nose deal last year also. Having been around racing all of my life and being a racer for a lot of that I hate to see someone who is doing it for the love of it get jobbed. I bothered me at the short tracks and it bothers me at the cup level. Let’s see what happens when the fad dies out and the big money dries up.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
Read the story you have linked about Waltrip and the jet fuel a Daytona. The 24 car is almost an inch low and Na$car says its a parts failure, no intent to cheat, and only sends him to the rear of the field for the 500. Compare that to Carls penalty….. For the record, I agree with Carl, the appeal board is a joke and Nascar doesnt want the little guy in racing.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 4:19 pm
If you think $200000 is a fair fine for Carl, why is it double the fine for M. Waltrip using “jet fuel” or whatever in the manifold. Same thing you are changing the HP of the engine. I don’t remember Carl ever getting any other penalties, however it seems Chad Kanas and company can commit penalty after penalty, how about a 3 strikes you’re out rule!!!!!
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 4:25 pm
I believe Rusty Wallace had an “oversized” engine at one point in time and they allowed it 24 hours to cool and it checked legal. I don’t think they did that for Carl. We all know metal expands when hot. I’ll bet that engine maybe legal by now, however, we will never see it again. The same way they didn’t allow J. Mayfield to get the “sample B” tested by and outside agency. No way for him to prove anything.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 4:26 pm
TC – Are you really THAT confident in the ABSOLUTE integrity of NASCAR? Do you really think they would not hide something for the good of the show? Or do something like call for a debris caution for the good of the show? REALLY?!
Just so you know, I am an insider myself. I have worked in the industry since the late ’80s. Just not a mechanic.
I have been involved with several organizations. I have seen my crew chief come home with his tail between his legs and huge fines, suspension and points. I have also seen a different crew chief come home with his tail between his legs…but a grin. He was simply told, “don’t ever come back here with that.” No penalty. No fine. No suspension. No press release. No NASCAR statement.
They were very similar infractions. Very different teams/driver. Very different results.
I have been in the NASCAR/ISC suite when the race was getting boring and Bill Jr picked up the phone and called for a caution. 2 laps later there was something “suspicious” the observer was concerned about in turn 2 at Dover…caution is out!
So, I may not call it “favoritism,” but I will call it manipulation. Not necessarily because they “like” a driver or not, but just like the old provisionals or promoters options…it was “for the good of the show.”
My second point (and I obviously did not explain myself well) is that .17 is a very small margin of error.
As you well know, teams push the limits every day. I just do not think they are THAT good at pushing this limit that nobody has exceeded it in 18 years. Plus, if as you say in another posting, they are allowed 358.09, then the variance is really only .08 cu in. That is VERY small.
I am very curious to see the actual measurements and calculation to see how they came up with 358.17. As with all measurements, there is a margin of error. Since you are an actual crewmember, I am sure you know, but 1) do they measure the radius & stroke of each cylinder? Or just 1 cylinder and multiply that by 8?, 2) To what unit of measure do those tools measure? 1/32nd? 1/1000ths? , 3) How many decimal places of pi do they use? Obviously, all of those variables have a direct impact on the end result of the computation.
Using 3.14 vs 15 decimal places of Pi, changes the result by more than the infraction. If they only use one cylinder and multiply by 8, do they use the biggest or smallest? Or whichever one they happened to pick to measure? If bore changes by less than 5/10,000ths, that could create the infraction. If stroke changes by less than 8/10,000ths, that could create the infraction. Are their tools really accurate to 1/10,000ths?
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 4:45 pm
Nascars has hardly ever given the same punishment to the same crime!
The real issue I have is yes Carl Long was caught using a big engine!
But I dont trust Nascar anymore checking engines or other things, I mean some of these engines of other ‘BIG TEAMS ” could be large and they give a ‘nod and wink’
They now carry the engines to Charlotte to be checked in behind door setting! With all the ‘money in the sport’, I think the compeditors should protest the other car like in the old days, and check it in front of the other teams so the ‘Checks and Balances” are in place and more ‘transparecy’ in place!
This might sound a bit harsh, does Nascar have a ‘conflict of interest’ policy when hiring inspectors? Some could be getting ‘Gifts from other teams, in which they give favorable treatment!
I think another good thing would be let them at Daytona and Talledaga put the restrictor plates and in box and let a ‘fan pass them out’! Seen to many questable races their!
Cheating and paying fines “could be taken” as well as given out!
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 5:35 pm
*Comment Deleted*
Bob- I tried to email you and ask you to clean up your earlier comment. Unfortunately the email you provided did not work. If you would like to clean up your comments and remove the vulgarities, the name calling, and the personal attacks I would be happy to post it. The inappropriateness of your last comment is troubling.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 6:03 pm
knobcreekfan: I don’t think I ever said I was “THAT confident in the ABSOLUTE integrity of NASCAR.” Please try and stick to what I actually said. And there are certainly things I’ve seen them do that I don’t agree with. But I also don’t think that there isn’t a giant conspiracy that exists so Dale Jr. can win every race like some fans would lead you to believe. When actual people are involved, nothing is ever going to be perfect. NASCAR is a business, and I don’t doubt there have been decisions made for the good of the show.
But in this case I do agree with NASCAR’s decision. And I think the only reason this penalty is any sort of issue is because Carl is a backmarker who can’t afford the fine. If this was Kyle Busch, there wouldn’t be any outrage.
And will somebody please provide me with evidence that NASCAR wants the little guy out? And don’t point to this situation. Many of you keep saying it, yet nobody can offer any valid argument why they think that.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 6:06 pm
The moral here is not to buy an engine from Ernie Elliot. Down 50 horses and blows up after a few laps? For $100,000?!! Has one of his engines come close to winning in the last 20 years? Carl is paying the price, but Ernie should be embarrassed as hell!!
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 6:13 pm
Ken – Where did you see Carl paid $100,000 for this engine?
That’s beside the point though. I count at least six wins since 2005. JPM at Sonoma and Mexico City, and then three Nationwide wins with Reed Sorenson and one with Casey Mears. There are others though.
Let’s try to remember this wasn’t a motor Ernie built for Carl. It was a used motor that has been run before.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 6:17 pm
RYAN – “T C are you sure they would have penalized a big name driver twelve races for a miniscule .017 infraction? Please! Wake up. That is what has all us ordinary Joes up in the air.”
Turn about is fair play… What makes you so sure NASCAR wouldn’t slam a “big name” driver for the same offense?
First of all you have to overlook a slight difference, Long was not only the owner of the team but the individual that purchased engine a “big name” driver wouldn’t be in the same category as Long.
But hey I understand where you’re coming from. Someone has to keep the Nazi UFO theories and Grassy Knoll theories alive.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 6:24 pm
steveC – “1) When the 55 was caught with jet fuel, The driver was not suspended and he was the owner on record.
2) When Robbie was caught with the nose issue tne driver was not suspended and he was the owner of record
3) when Carl was caught with the oil tank lid missing the driver nor the owner Jack Roush were suspended.
What’s different in all three of those cases as opposed to Long’s?
Who put the jet fuel in the 55, placed the illegal nose on the 7 or tinkered with Carl’s oil tank?
There’s zero proof the owner’s or drivers did anything, in Long’s case he’s admitted to not only purchasing the engine but directing it be installed in the car.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 6:26 pm
Nowhere has Carl Long said he could not afford to pay the fine, he said his crew chief couldn’t afford it. NASCAR said that Long could not pay the fine for his Crew Chief. I don’t disagree with suspending them for 12 races but fining a crew chief $200,000.00 when he may only make 50-75k a year is a little obscene. Fine the owner not the workers.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 6:34 pm
Let’s face it, Jr, J. Gordon, Johnson, Stewart or any other of the most popular drivers will never be parked. If a violation is discovered it will be spun to be simalar, but with different circumstances to keep this from happening. Carl Long was no doubt in violation of the rules, but it seems that NASCAR always chooses to ramp up the penalties when the violations are by teams and drivers that will produce little backlash from the fans and still get the point accross to all teams.
If we want to be fair accross the board on fines, maybe the fine should be a percentage of winnings over a period of time so Nascar can cripple the megateams as well as the little guy
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 6:45 pm
marc. Do you really think that NASCAR would suspend Jr. if his engine was found .017 over. REALLY? I had forgotten about the Rusty Wallace incedent. There is enough evidence right there.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 6:55 pm
knobcreekfan – “I have been in the NASCAR/ISC suite when the race was getting boring and Bill Jr picked up the phone and called for a caution. 2 laps later there was something “suspicious” the observer was concerned about in turn 2 at Dover…caution is out!”
Really?
As a self-described “insider” and one who has “worked in the industry since the late ’80s” presumably you care about the sport and the integrity of said sport.
Can we assume you have screamed to everyone involved?
Letters? Emails? Something online? Lawsuits?
Anything to lend the slightest bit of credibility to the explosive charge you make?
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 6:55 pm
TC – first let me say I am not defending Carl. I think if you bolt it on the car, it is your responsibility. The penalty for cheating should fit the crime.
Having said that however, I do feel that before you slap someone with a 12 week suspension and $200,000 fine, the infraction better be beyond the margin of error.
If I were Carl and his legal team, I would be arguing the method and tools of the measurement vs calling NASCAR names and pointing blame on Ernie or Chip.
Now to quote you….”knobcreekfan: Thank you for the black helicopters/conspiracy theory comment. The favoritism that everyone thinks exists just isn’t true.” Dude – I do not want to start he said/she said, but your response sounds like you are awfully confident that I was wrong.
But like you said…stick to what I actually said. I never used favortism. Never said Dale Jr. I was very broad in saying “big name team/driver.”
I never said they want the little guy out. Yes, I think they can stick it to Carl and make an example out of him. It scares the heck out of anybody else that may be pushing the rules. But (no offense Carl) having Carl out of business is not going to impact the show in the slightest.
My original point was quite simple. The fans can yell & scream all they want that they want set fines/penalties for the various infractions. They can yell & scream that they want a list of prohibited drugs. If NASCAR does not publish the results of every measurement from every car from every inspection (or every drug test), then an infraction that could lead to a 12 week suspension from a team/driver that NASCAR does not want suspended for 12 weeks will simply never see the light of day. The owner/crew chief/team manager/driver/etc may all get a stern talking to. They may be found in violation of a smaller infraction, docked points, pay a fine & apologize. But not be suspended for 12 weeks.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 7:28 pm
Whether he was wrong or right, I’m actually happy that Carl said what he did about NASCAR. Having watched races for 25+ years now, it’s a rarity to hear drivers speak their minds when they oppose the sanctioning body. Of course, those that do (Stewart, etc), are always “called to the red trailer” and asked not to say bad things about the series.
Thank you, Carl Long, for having the guts to speak your mind and tell us how you really feel. I can only hope other drivers follow suit.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 7:30 pm
KR – “Do you really think that NASCAR would suspend Jr. if his engine was found .017 over. REALLY? I had forgotten about the Rusty Wallace incedent.[sic] There is enough evidence right there.”
Yeah, they would, if Dale Jr. had purchased the engine and or modified it so it would have failed inspection.
Let me know when that happens.
P.S. knobcreekfan nothing yet?
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 7:45 pm
What I haven’t been able to wrap my head around for years is you can cheat in multiple ways that create a noticeable advantage in the race. You win the race and collect $300k prize money and 190 points. NASCAR catches you and you are fined $100k and 100 points. You get to keep the win, have a net gain of $200k and 90 points even though you cheated blatantly and had a noticeable advantage. No driver or owner suspensions.
I don’t think anybody will ever be able to explain to me how that is fair, or even begins to make sense. All this nonsense about the dreaded “tires, fuel, engine” crap makes no sense either. There are rules for all this stuff…..breaking the rule of skinning your car with illegal sheet metal since it is black and white in the rulebook should be no more taboo then an engine that is .17 over. Safety isn’t any difference from on to another….both are designed to make the car go faster than NASCAR intended the car to go under the rulebook.
Go to your local short track and get caught breaking a rule in the rulebook. You load up and go home without purse money or points. Simple as that.
Again, I say penalize Carl. I agree 100% that he should be fined. However, his cheat was absolutely no worse than illegal sheet metal, illegal rear ends, cars that are too low, magnets under the gas pedal, rear window height adjusters, oil tank lids flying off, illegal springs, illegal shocks, and on and on. Most of that other stuff has been raced and won with in points paying races.
The rulebook and NASCAR comments on what is ‘taboo’ aside, somebody explain to me how an engine that is .17 over is any worse than all the other cheats I mentioned above from a competitive and racing integrity stand point. I just don’t see it.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 7:56 pm
Phantom cautions have been around as long as I can remember. Big Bill and Bill Jr. always remembered it was a show first. Watch some of the videos of the old drivers talking, they all have stories about being told not to stink up the show. Old news, how long have you been around racing? If any of the big name drivers were caught with anything wrong you can bet it would be taken back to the R@D center for further inspection. It is not that they don’t want the little guy anymore it is that they don’t care about them. Moving farther from the roots. I have been going to racetracks since I was 3 years old. Superbirds were in the first cup race I saw. Were Cup is headed really bothers me but I am one of the old fans that don’t matter anymore.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 7:59 pm
Larry – “but it seems that NASCAR always chooses to ramp up the penalties when the violations are by teams and drivers that will produce little backlash from the fans and still get the point accross to all teams.”
2002 – Kevin Harvick was “parked” by NASCAR officials and was not be allowed to drive in the Virginia 500 at Martinsville Speedway, the suspension was the result of an incident in the previous days NASCAR Truck series race at Martinsville.
The decision was “final, non-appealable and non-reviewable.”
The penalties given to both the #48 and #24 teams are legion, although most were of the 50 point a few grand variety however, that changed in 2007 and as you call them they were “ramped up.”
#24-Jeff Gordon/Hendrick Motorsports, July 2007, Sonoma, Front Fender Manipulation, Steve Letarte, $100,000/100, 6 races
#48-Jimmie Johnson/Hendrick Motorsports, July 2007, Sonoma, Front Fender Manipulation, Chad Knaus, $100,000/100, 6 races
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 8:10 pm
Harvick was on the radio telling the team he was going to intentionally wreck someone. He had gotten to the point that he was going to hurt someone. Something had to be done. For the conspiracy people, It was Coy Gibbs he went after.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
To Racer- I’m with ya here buddy on the strange way to handle a “cheater” that wins and to all….sorry for the repost of my comment from 5/20, but here goes. I wrote “I dearly wish Carl Long’s purchased motor had propelled him to finish 1st or 2nd (or even the fan vote) in the showdown….advanced thru the All Star segements and collected the million….just to see how Helton and crew would have handled themselves.
Based on this post response, we can all vote Carl (Long, not Edwards) in for 2010.”
For next May, someone should build one bad ass motor, hire an out of work driver w/ talent.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 8:14 pm
marc – you made a post time stamped at 6:55pm asking me for some type of evidence. I have not replied to your request with 35 minutes and you are upset?!?! Wow – now that is demanding!
I care about the sport in that it has provided me with a nice living for the bulk of my adult life. However, (and maybe you have gathered from my posts), I will not vouch for the integrity of the sport. And pardon me TC if I am taking liberties with your remarks, but it appears TC would agree that there have been occasions that actions were taken for the good of the show.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 8:50 pm
KR – “He had gotten to the point that he was going to hurt someone. Something had to be done. For the conspiracy people, It was Coy Gibbs he went after.”
And so?
There’s a butt load of people in this thread claiming NASCAR would never, NEVER park a top line driver.
And if you could KR, please explain how the potential to hurt someone in the truck event translated to being suspended in the next days Cup event.
That straw you’re grasping is a mighty thin one.
knobcreekfan – “I care about the sport in that it has provided me with a nice living for the bulk of my adult life.”
That maybe, but it does nothing to prove in any way the grand conspiracy you claimed to have witnessed.
Surely you’re not alone among the thousands that have been in in “race control” or in a skybox over the years and have been in that position (i.e. within earshot of a NASCAR official ordering a yellow) can you point to one single story to corroborate what you claimed to have witnessed?
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 8:56 pm
Just wanted to drop back in and say a big thank you to everyone that commented on this post who kept it clean and offered up good discussion. I know it got heated at times, and that’s cool, because we are all passionate people. The whole point of this blog is to offer up our own thoughts and opinions and then open up the floor to discussion. We will certainly call folks out from time to time, and you will certainly call us out. But please know that all we don’t mean any ill will towards you if we happen to call you out.
So thanks to all!
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 9:26 pm
Do you not remember Harvick in those days? Jumping over cars to grab Biffle etc. NASCAR had been telling Childress to get him under control and he could not. I don’t thing Harvick thought for a minute they would do it so he forced their hand. The cup race just happened to be the next national touring series event he was entered in so they sat his a$$ down. Never had another problem with him either. At the time he was not what you would call a top line driver, he was in a top line car. Again, if you want evidence on the cautions just watch those old videos or if you ever see one of those drivers at an event just ask them. I still can’t believe you did not know that went on. Heck, go to speedtv.com and ask Robin Miller, even he knows about those.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 9:31 pm
First of all, Chad I have the most respect for you, as I have only been a #48 fan, and admire your amazing work!
Second of all, a big thanks to sirius 128 as I would die if I couldn’t get my nascar fix EVERYDAY, yes I am that in to it…..
I think that Carl Long deserves a penalty, he knows what is required, all car owners, crew cheifs, and drivers do. There are rules for a reason and Nascar shouldn’t back down and let him go easy because he is a “little guy”.
Keep up the good work, and man I wish I had your email
as I always have nothing but praise for you, you are amazing to listen to on the nascar fan view, the best part of the race is hearing you calm Jimmie down and do it so calmly!
Keep up the good work, and on to the 4th!!!!
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 9:50 pm
One big question I have about this whole ordeal is how badly was the engine damaged due to the overheating/blowing up? Maybe it was within spec when it was installed but not after its on the track failure. If the damage was extensive, or even minor due to the closeness of the infraction, it would be comparable to NASCAR expecting Carl Edwards’ Talladega car to fit the templates post race after it tore down the catchfence.
Also, did Ernie Elliot do anything to motor while it was in his posession or did he just buy it from Ganassi and then turn around and sell it to Carl? I don’t think either EE or Ganassi have any responsibility in this issue mainly because it was a used engine. Who knows how many miles it had on it? If it were 358 c.i. on the dot when it was built, it very easily could be 0.17 c.i. worn out. Besides, I have reservations about the error in measuring a discrepancy that small anyhow.
Finally, I do feel sorry for Carl. NASCAR’s fine is the equivalent of the HP pulling you over and fining you a couple thousand dollars and suspending your license because they clocked you going 35.5 mph in a 35 zone. I’m absolutely sure Carl didn’t intend to cheat. You don’t go to the expense and trouble to gain 0.17 c.i. Assuming a linear relationship between c.i. and hp, 0.17 would bump an 800 hp motor up to 800.38 hp. Not exactly enough juice to put him on the pole.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 11:18 pm
marc – first, I am not going to give you any specific information about this team or that team as it would be fairly easy for TC & Journo to back into who I am. And just as they are not publically broadcasting who they are, I am not going to publish who I am.
Second, there is not going to be any documentation anywhere that says this crew chief was busted for an illegal part, but NASCAR let him off. Short of any such documentation, your need for proof is not going to be fulfilled.
Finally, you may find it hard to believe, but after 20 years of attending 30+ races/year I simply do not remember every caution flag. This was not my only trip to a NASCAR suite. And honestly, I did not hear Bill Jr say anything. I saw him pick up the phone…he would sit in the top row on the aisle. Then immediately after he hung up, race control began asking the observers for a report on track conditions. The first time through, nobody reported any debris. They asked again. This time, race control asked the folks in turn 2 if the chunk sitting on the apron was debris. The observer replied that he was not sure. Race control then immediately said…”throw it.” It was at Dover. It does not seem that long ago, but it was probably 7-8 years or more.
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 11:26 pm
You are right JD (comment81)
Given the history of this engine, all it went thru in ARCA also, it would be unreasonable to think this engine would be exactly to spec. Longs explanation was reasonable, and next to impossible to be anything else. Most likely the main problem was this particular engine was right at the upper limits of passing tech when new…a small amount of wear and tear would put it over.
I believe even nascar knew that all along. I believe this was aimed directly at Carl Long as a way to rid themselves of the “start and park” teams. “If” it were just to simply send a message, surely the 200 points would do the trick. The money / suspension and refusal to listen to appeals were aimed squarely against Carl Long.
Remember a few weeks ago when nascar was talking about the
“start and park” teams…wanting to do something about it?
on Jun 4th, 2009 at 11:39 pm
I just want to echo what TC said. Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussion today. Everyone remained very civil and they were willing to listen to their fellow commenters and to us. It was especially cool to see commenters having conversations with each other. While we may not always agree with each other, I hope we can foster an arena of mutual respect. Days like today are why we both enjoy the site. Thanks!
on Jun 5th, 2009 at 3:54 am
KR – “Do you not remember Harvick in those days?”
Um yeah.
“At the time he was not what you would call a top line driver, he was in a top line car.”
A diff of opinion, he had 3 wins at that point and ran under RCR banner.
“Again, if you want evidence on the cautions just watch those old videos or if you ever see one of those drivers at an event just ask them. I still can’t believe you did not know that went on. Heck, go to speedtv.com and ask Robin Miller, even he knows about those.”
Old videos are evidence? So they would show every yellow and why it was thrown?
No, that’s no evidence at all, just as it isn’t now.
Robin Miller? You mean the same Robin Miller who at times seems to go out of his way to bash NASCAR and favor his open wheel bailiwick? No thanks.
That said, I’m haven’t and never will say a yellow has never been tossed in error, but to claim NASCAR has a stated policy to toss them is black helicopter territory.
on Jun 5th, 2009 at 3:59 am
knobcreekfan – “This was not my only trip to a NASCAR suite. And honestly, I did not hear Bill Jr say anything. I saw him pick up the phone…he would sit in the top row on the aisle.”
Excuse me? Close enough see…
“I have been in the NASCAR/ISC suite when the race was getting boring and Bill Jr picked up the phone and called for a caution. 2 laps later there was something “suspicious” the observer was concerned about in turn 2 at Dover…caution is out!”
So now what it boils down to is you were and are guessing.
You were and are predisposed to believe what you believe so it MUST be so.
I’m far from surprised.
on Jun 5th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
Carl Long did NOT cheat. The man does not have deep pockets like the billion-dollar super teams that receive slaps on the wrist. Carl Long is frustrated, and he did not “trash” the big-shots and engine builder as you say in your editorial! NASCAR cares more about piles of cash than it does for the average little guy who scrapes his money together to race. NASCAR has practically invented the grey area, picking and choosing where and when to enforce their so-called black-and-white rules. I guess it’s easy for NASCAR yes men like Burton and Truex to support NASCAR because it’s their meal ticket, and they drive for big-buck teams. Long was not cheating; it wasn’t even his main engine (.17…come on!), and it was the All-Star race weekend.
Why would NASCAR make an example out of Carl Long? Because they can. This is not a Hendrick or a Roush. Carl has every right to be angry and to criticize a system that has no room for hard-working, independent drivers and continues to spit in the face of tradition and heritage. The fans and level-headed drivers must come together to let NASCAR know that this garbage will not be tolerated. NASCAR is a big bully that needs to be dropped down a few pegs, maybe put out to pasture for good. I, for one, have no intentions of supporting NASCAR in any way, shape, or form EVER again!
on Jun 5th, 2009 at 2:24 pm
Carl said:
“Apparently they didn’t pay attention to what they sold me, or they just didn’t care — one or the other,” Long said of Elliott. “I didn’t think it’d ever wind up being where it is. All I did was buy a part from a guy, with a name, that says I’m legal to go racing. I went to a reputable builder, but he’s not being held responsible. He just told me ‘Good luck.’
“The pistons in the engine was a 4.185 size, which is the maximum limit in our series. And all the paperwork that he showed on them said it was a 4.183. The whole thing was, a mistake happened and I’m the guy that’s got to pay for it.”
This tells me that the engine was probably not legal when it was sold to Carl, or the paperwork was for the wrong engine.
Just pointing out that I don’t think Carl intentionally cheated. To me this is entirely different than Gibbs playing with magnets. Waltrip using fuel additives, Kanus with a deflecting rear window, etc. This is just like killing an ant with a sludge hammer. This is by no way a $200000 fine. And in addition it didn’t give him any competitive advantage as with the magets, fuel and windows. Give me a break!!!!
on Jun 5th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
Ken Bagenstose – “”They want somebody to come and start four teams. Or, maybe they’re just trying to weasel all of us out so they can franchise. I don’t know. I’m not a part of their kings of the round table.”
No, then what do you call an engine that was over the mandated limit?
“Long was not cheating; it wasn’t even his main engine (.17…come on!), and it was the All-Star race weekend.
No matter how many times you tell yourself he didn’t cheat there’s no weaseling out of the fact the engine was outside the limit, a limit BTW that is 350-358ci which means he not only missed the limit he was outside the tolerance all teams are given.
Not his “main engine?” Sure it was, if it hadn’t blown up it would have been in the car at the start of the Open.
Being All Star weekend is immaterial, the event is NASCAR sanctioned as such NASCAR is perfectly correct in enforcing the rules.
“Carl Long is frustrated, and he did not “trash” the big-shots and engine builder as you say in your editorial!”
He didn’t?
Then how would you classify this Long quote, “They [NASCAR] want somebody to come and start four teams. Or, maybe they’re just trying to weasel all of us out so they can franchise. I don’t know. I’m not a part of their kings of the round table.”
That’s not trashing NASCAR? Sure it is, he makes a completely unsubstantiated charge that NASCAR is intentionally forcing him or other small teams out.
Where’s his facts? He has none, he has emotion, nothing more.
“I, for one, have no intentions of supporting NASCAR in any way, shape, or form EVER again!”
That may be the case, if so see-ya, but I’ll add I’ve seen the same written and seen the very same people continue to comment on various blogs and forums months and years later.
on Jun 5th, 2009 at 2:58 pm
HENRY, just who should be responsible then?
Long bought it and attempted to race with it… period!
This entire sham of certain segments society shifting blame from the guilty is getting very tiresome.
on Jun 5th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
“This was a big deal, whether Carl meant to do it or not. Every team and driver knows fuel, tires and engines are things you don’t mess with and he apparently inadvertently broke that golden rule.”
Let’s see, Carl unknowingly (most likely) used an incorrect engine — $200000. Waltrip knowingly put in a fuel additive — $100000. Do you mean to tell me that we have had a 100% inflation factor in Nascar fines in 24 months. Don’t tell me there isn’t a “sliding scale” for fines. They just wanted Carl gone. It’ pretty evident to me that Nascar favors the “big boys” in this sport, otherwise, whats the reason behind the “top 35 rule”.
on Jun 5th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
If I though it was someone else’s fault, I’d certainly say it. I would only be defending myself. I don’t think Carl is really trying not to take some blame, he’s just saying that the fine does not fit the crime as I stated in my last post. If they had fined him $100000 like Micky I don’t think the fans would be so pissed off. As it is, this is way off the “sliding scale”
on Jun 5th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
Henry- What we have seen from NASCAR is this gradual escalation of fines for things like this. It is them encouraging teams not to do things by hitting them in their wallet.
As far as the sliding scale comment goes, it was not me that said that. It was the National Stock Car Racing Commission. I happen to agree with their logic though.
Can you give me another example where NASCAR has been particularly hard on a small team? NASCAR fines and penalizes big teams all the time. I pointed some out in my post. I can’t think of any where NASCAR is favoring one type of team over another.
The top-35 rule isn’t meant to penalize small teams it is meant to reward those competitors who compete every weekend and are committed to the sport.
on Jun 5th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
Journo, —- I think you said it all in your first sentance:
Henry- What we have seen from NASCAR is this gradual escalation of fines for things like this. It is them encouraging teams not to do things by hitting them in their wallet.
Would you say “gradual” is 100% increase in less that 2 years.?
Nascar does fine big teams all the time. Why? Because they are the ones cheating. And don’t mind a $100000 fine and a slap on the rist The little guys hardly have the resources to cheat. lol!!!
Jeff Gordon was fined $100000 and 200 points a while back. The board reduced the points to 100 and increased the fine to $150000. We all know the points really ment something to him but money didn’t. So it seems they cut him a deal on that one. “I’ll give you more money you give me back my points”
on Jun 5th, 2009 at 4:32 pm
Journo
“The top-35 rule isn’t meant to penalize small teams it is meant to reward those competitors who compete every weekend and are committed to the sport.”
Do you think #36 is any less committed than #35 , what a joke!!
on Jun 5th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
Marc — Journo
Are you sure you guy’s don’t work for Nascar!!! lol!!!
on Jun 5th, 2009 at 4:46 pm
henry – “Let’s see, Carl unknowingly (most likely) used an incorrect engine — $200000. Waltrip knowingly put in a fuel additive — $100000.”
And you know those two points to be fact, how so? Do you know for a fact Long did what he did intentionally, or by accident?
What we do know for fact is Waltrip’s jet fuel was no accident, however what we don’t know with certainty is who in his organization who the guilty party was.
“They just wanted Carl gone. It’ pretty evident to me that Nascar favors the “big boys” in this sport, otherwise, whats the reason behind the “top 35 rule”.”
Again, for what reason did NASCAR want Long gone? I’ve seen several people with the same thought but not a single valid reason why?
Wanna give it a try?
“I don’t think Carl is really trying not to take some blame, he’s just saying that the fine does not fit the crime as I stated in my last post.”
No, not a bit except when he threw the engine builder under the bus rather than say “I bought it, it sat in the garage for five months and attempted to race with it.”
on Jun 5th, 2009 at 4:58 pm
Henry- Haha. I am sure neither of us work for NASCAR. I can’t speak to the logic behind their decisions for fines, but I think it is clear they are trying to create a no tolerance policy. Whether you agree with that or not I think is the ultimate issue.
on Jun 5th, 2009 at 5:21 pm
Henry – ”
Marc — Journo Are you sure you guy’s don’t work for Nascar!!! lol!!!
I’ll echo Journo, buwawahaha!
Here’s the deal I’ll make for ya Henry.
You go through my five years of blogging on and about NASCAR and make a decision rather than the typical (typical of someone who’s run out of valid arguments) off the cuff assertion I work for NASCAR.
While there you might even note I accept no paid advertisement in an effort to remain “neutral.”
I haven’t been rated as one of the top NASCAR bloggers for a reason and it’s not because of being a shill for anyone.
on Jun 5th, 2009 at 5:25 pm
No, not a bit except when he threw the engine builder under the bus rather than say “I bought it, it sat in the garage for five months and attempted to race with it.”
If someone sold you something that wasn’t per the spec. they said it was, what would you do? You paid good money for it, they said it was within spec. Would you just set there and say, well it’s just my fault for being so stupid. No,,,, you would raise H___ about it. as most anyone would.
on Jun 5th, 2009 at 6:03 pm
Henry – “Would you just set there and say, well it’s just my fault for being so stupid. No,,,, you would raise H___ about it. as most anyone would.”
You’re full of speculation and guesswork Henry, not to mention attempting to make me the subject of the discussion.
But if you insist, I’d exactly what Long has done, to a point.
I would have appeal the original decision and when it was turned down gone about my business rather than whimper and cry about it.
As much as you might like to to be this isn’t a car dealer where your protected under a warranty or the so-called Lemon Laws.
This isn’t and never has been like Wal-Mart where you might be protected by some consumer protection agency – its NASCAR.
You live by their rules or you pay the price.
on Jun 5th, 2009 at 6:03 pm
Marc,
I was only joking about you working for Nascar, can’t you take one lol!!! and I respect the knowledge you have gathered over the past 5 years of “bloggers”. and I agree you are really good at it.
I’ve been around for 63 years. I watched Richard Petty run at South Boston, speedyway, along with a lot of others. when it was dirt.. I live less that 2 miles from Ward Burton, and I watched he and Jeff race as kids. Now I’m watching Wards son Jeb race. I’ve seen Carl win track championships at Orange County speenway and South Boston Speedway. I don’t profess to know all the ends and out of Nascar, I’m just a fan. All I know is what it see and read. I’m sure you are much more knowledgable that I am. However, I know when someone has be done wrong, and I believe Carl has been. Even old DW in his latest news release says he thinks so. So I’m not the only person out here pissed off. Go read the other blogs and you will see there are a lot more people saying I’m right that you.
on Jun 5th, 2009 at 6:18 pm
Oh yes, and BTW, Nascar engines are not üsed cars, they are speced and “papered” , even the ones used in LMS and Limited Sportman so don’t be comparing them to üsed cars.
on Jun 5th, 2009 at 7:14 pm
Here’s some who agree with me. Let me know how many you can find any that agree with you.
http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports_nascar/2009/06/david-reutimann-spearheads-carl-long-fundraising-effort.html
http://fanzonesports.net/nascar/2009/06/fans-reutimann-donate-to-pay-longs-nascar-fine/
http://www.sportingnews.com/blog/lovemusicsports86/192942
http://motorsports.fanhouse.com/2009/06/02/absurd-carl-long-200k-penalty-upheld/
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/191126-longs-life-sentence-how-nascar-ruined-someones-life
http://insiderracingnews.com/Writers/DD/060409.html
If these are not enough I have a few more, but I’m sure you get the idea by now
on Jun 5th, 2009 at 8:17 pm
If you are going to bash someone, be careful!! If you are going to put words into my mouth, then you need to make sure you get all of the facts right. We have never called Jack and John out negatively–that is you!(journo)!! They were very genuine and good people put in a tough spot. They are not even affiliated with Nascar. We would join them for dinner anytime!! These two people are not the “bullies”. We asked them to lower the penality, and even create a rule holding engine builders responsible!!
As for EEI they are one of the best engine builders in the country, so you can see why all of us are shocked that this “big” engine came up thousandths out of spec. EEI declined to come to the appeal. Maybe you should have come since you have all the answers and you could have explained how this happened!!
As for the people worried about $100k income. Taking all winnings, sponsors and weekly pay added together, deduct tire bills plus other expenses and we are lucky to break even!! We always pay everybody we owe. Go through the garage area or to any supplier and ask them if we owe them!! We take responsibility and pay everything even when people dont pay us. There is a high percentage of teams in the infield that owe alot, spend spend spend then leave people and vendors hanging. NOT US!! We make sure we can pay everything before we go. So when NASCAR shorted us & the 83 car $21k on the posted pay it damn well hurt!! Have you noticed how they will not respond; why when they added 2 positions to the field instead of keeping the $26,9 guarentee, it became $5K?
Google–why Bill France started Nascar– to insure promoters did not promise big pay and not deliver!!
Bottom line is that the engine is wrong. We asked Nascar for lienency. Every person with anytime working in the garage has witnessed lienency. Example: ” Have this fixed before qualifing or dont bring it back to the track this way” . Other examples will never be published or admitted. This is a reason many people in the sport are trying to help. How do you take the smallest team with an infraction thousandths out of spec and give the largest fine ever???
Bill France Jr. had a great feel for the fans and teams. This penality is based on G Bodine in 1991 winston. The majority of fans hated Bodine in this period and the crowd went wild when he was parked. The garage was pleased because he was wrong!! Win Win…fans and teams!! Why is Carl the only driver to be suspended in recent history when other teams purposely cheated? Do you think the garage (regular officials and team members) would be supporting us if we were so evil!! We are being raped while the world watches and you (journo) feel we deserve it. I guess you are right we did sign the entry to put on a show for YOU. We did accept responsibility and asking the high powers for a heart is not in the book. So we are left in a position where we cant pay all we owe.
BTW as for job security do you have a clue how many unemployed people there are around Mooresville looking for work??? Guess what most of them dont have race cars and none have national headlines distracting from daily work.
on Jun 5th, 2009 at 9:02 pm
Dee Dee- First of all if you read the post there was zero bashing going on. Criticism of childish behavior on the part of your husband is not bashing. I have the utmost respect for what Carl is trying to do, but he knows the rules and if he broke them he needs to take responsibility for that; not blame Ernie Elliott or trash the leadership of this sport. I think it is a little presumptive of anyone to assume they know what someone has gone through in their life to get where they are. Just because Brian France is a France doesn’t mean he hasn’t worked to get where he is at. Not to mention attacking the integrity of Mike Helton.
As far as him calling the Commission “bullies,” I am looking at quotes from him. I know the Commission was sympathetic to him so if he was trying to refer to someone as bullies he needed to clarify that. Those are all very good men.
As far as blaming Ernie Elliott I ask you how can you blame someone for something they sold you five months ago? As I have said several times throughout the post and the comment section can you really blame someone for something they sold you five months ago? Ernie has had no oversight or control over that motor for five months. Not to say anything has been purposely done to it, but if something happened to it as a result of overheating or some other issue, you can’t blame that on Ernie. He is a very respected engine builder and member of the community and I find it hard to reconcile the attacks that have been leveled against him. Have you considered the damage that has been done to his reputation as a result of your accusations? From what I can see you haven’t.
As far as the job situation goes, I know Carl is a hard worker and I doubt Front Row would let him go. I don’t think you need to use that to build sympathy for your case. And you don’t need to tell me about the people who are out of work around here. I know many of them.
The amount of the penalty is high. There is no doubting that. But you can’t lower the penalty for this situation because every team will expect the same treatment. If this happens to Rick Hendrick or Roger Penske they can say well we had a bad quarter at the dealerships and we can’t afford it either. It is not fair to you and it is not fair to them. As we have seen in the last couple of seasons NASCAR has been ramping up penalties. There have been a lot of big teams that have been fined a lot of money. I don’t think can anybody can reasonably afford a $200,000 penalty. What happened with Carl really sucks, but a rule was broken, apparently inadvertently and he needs to be penalized.
I never said I thought Carl deserved to be penalized the amount he was. I think it is a lot and I know you are working class people. But the fact of the matter is, what is done is done.
Ultimately my biggest issue was the way Carl reacted to things (as the post very clearly points out). That is when I lost any and all sympathy for him. I know he is upset and I know he is passionate, but he needed to consider the damage he was doing to other’s reputations. Take responsibility for what happened, move on and deal with the ramifications.
on Jun 5th, 2009 at 9:02 pm
After reading a post by “Sue R”, I just wanted to clarify some things for you and everyone else that might think the same way you do. We purchased the engine from the engine BUILDER. “If you change the motor, you should have receipts”….absolutely!! How can you have receipts for things that you dont buy?! We run a small business as well (Carl Long Racing). We know all about paperwork.
I am having a hard time understanding how some of you could possibly think this is something that was done intentional!! Dont you think that if we were going to cheat we would do it so that we would gain something from it?!?! Nothing was gained from .17 ci.
When the engine blew in practice we had to change it out with a back-up engine for the race. The rules of Nascar are that when you change engines, you have to submit the one that blew to nascar for a tear down. We had the option to just load up and go home!! Seriously, would we have submitted this engine, if we thought it was too big?!?! HELL NO!! We would have loaded up and took the last place winnings!!!
on Jun 5th, 2009 at 9:29 pm
Dee Dee- We never said Carl did this intentionally. We don’t think he did. I know neither of you are stupid. I also though don’t think NASCAR should have to prove intent. They are a sanctioning body, not a court of law. No other sport proves intent before issuing penalties; how many times have you heard an athlete accused of taking steroids or a banned supplement say he didn’t mean to use it? It is a very difficult thing to prove outside of a court room; it’s difficult inside a court room.
on Jun 5th, 2009 at 9:35 pm
Journo: You tell me how you buy a motor that is “legal” in Feb. and not “legal” in May when it has the same pistons, crank, etc.. that it had at Daytona. Are you trying to say that because it sat in the race shop for a couple of months that it grew like a chia pet? I really wish you could help us explain it to Nascar. We have another appeal coming up. Would you care to go explain it for us?
We trusted Ernie Elliott provided us a legal engine. We knew it wasnt gonna be the most powerful! Ernie explained it grew with heat. Nascar says it didnt. We have to except Nascars decision no matter what. All we asked for is lienency but none exist for us!
How would you feel if you were in our shoes? Ernie and Bill are Carls heros! We all know Ernie knows how to build a motor.
on Jun 5th, 2009 at 9:36 pm
Henry- As much as I appreciate you finding people who side with you, I think it is irrelevant. It is of little consequence to me what others think. This is my opinion and if others don’t agree with it, I certainly can’t fault them for that.
(Sorry, this was in the spam bin)
on Jun 5th, 2009 at 9:51 pm
Dee Dee- I am unfortunately not an expert engine builder. But the motor has been run a couple of times and from what I understand it has also been worked on. You can not without a reasonable doubt say the motor was like this when you bought it, therefore you can not blame the person you bought it from. If you had evidence when you bought it that was oversized than that is one thing, but after five months, time on track and other people working on it, it is no longer Ernie’s fault.
I obviously have no idea what you are feeling like right now but I have the utmost sympathy for you. This is without a doubt a very bad situation. I hope for your sake and for the sake of Mr Swing, Charles Strang does give you that leniency that you need.
And I want to thank you for not coming in here with guns blazing. I appreciate being able to calmly explain my point and hear your side of things. I think you and Carl are good people, I am just disappointed with the way things were addressed.
on Jun 5th, 2009 at 9:55 pm
Nascar changed the rule hours before we took the green flag about the purse. So they can change the rules at their “discretion” but when it comes to our situation all we hear is “rules are rules”. Everyone says when we entered the race we took responsibility….well the entry form that we filled out also said we were gaurenteed 26,000 and Nascar did not take responsibility. We would have never went had we known that we could not pay for our expenses.
Carl went into the appeal board fighting that they change the rule making engine builders responsible to protect all other teams and drivers in the sport that have to rely on an outside source. Example: Ryan Newman and Smoke!!
on Jun 5th, 2009 at 10:15 pm
We never called Ernie by name until the media called him out. We could not tell a lie and we are not crafty enough to tell them alot of stuff and still not answer the question.
we did change the cam to go from plate to open motor, the heads never came off. We offered the work to EEI with their employees at the ganassi building. They declined. It only had 175 miles on it and there are good 5-600.
on Jun 6th, 2009 at 12:02 am
Wow! Journo, I’d like a customer like you. 5 months go by and you don’t expect even the most major of purchases to hold together? I wasn’t at all surprised that Mr. Long didn’t have either $200,000 or the ability to measure engine parts down to 0.17. Call me crazy but I like to see a couple of underdogs out on the track. I guess Nascar does not.
Not only did Mr.. Elliot show no interest in the quality of the piece he sold, he also accused the Long team of boring out the engine. Why should Mr. Long stay silent in the face of such accusations?
4 years ago my neighbour bought a harp for his daughter at exactly one month after the warranty it developped a crack. My neighbour wrote the harp company and apologized for contacting them outside the warranty period, but asked them if they had any advice or if a repair kit were available for purchase. The harp company sent someone out the next day to pick up the harp, and replace it with a new one. They apologized up and down and advised them that while the stated warranty was only 4 years they expected their harps to last over a hundred years. They took the harp back and disected and called all other customers who had the same wood lot. If only Ernie Elliot took the same pride in his sales…
on Jun 6th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
Nascar should let Dale jr take performance enhancing drugs.
on Jun 6th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
i have an idea when jeremy mayfield wipes nascar and heltons face in da mudd when he wins his case, he can pay carl’s fine, that would really stick it to nascar..hehehe
on Jun 7th, 2009 at 7:53 pm
This has gotten really interesting. As far as the videos, I am talking about the ones with the old drevers sitting around talking about racing in their time. They all mention throwing a caution for the sake of the show. I don’t have a problem with it, I accepted that a long time ago. I have seen enough evidence for me, I you don’t think they do that well, ok. As far as Harvick, our definitions of a top line driver are different. This whole deal points out where NASCAR has gone. It used to be two competitions at the track. One on the track and one in the garage. It was the mechanic’s job to figure things out to beat the other guy. If you got caught, fine, they took your stuff and put it out on a table for everyone to see, maybe gave you a fine, and everyone went on there way. Racers and real racing fans understood this a part of the sport. Probably two of the most revered men in racing history were Junior Johnson and Smokey Yunick. When NASCAR became a fad and all of the new fans came over from the stick and ball sports they had no idea about that side of the sport, journalist either. NASCAR is a business so they are catering to the most money, which is all of the new money, can’t blame them there, but that is part of what is running the old fans away. I spent more years on the mechanical side than driving so I was always amazed by what people could come up with “cheating” or creative interpretation of the rules. Carl is being used as an example, pure and simple. To some fans it is an example of how NASCAR is not going to stand for any cheating, zero tolerance, etc and that is fine. To me it is an example of NASCAR
on Jun 7th, 2009 at 7:57 pm
Hit the wrong button. To me it is an example of NASCAR moving farther away from what got them where they are. It is there game so they can do what they want. But for someone who has spent 95% of there life around racing it pi$$es you off.
on Jun 7th, 2009 at 9:25 pm
I have to agree the fine was excessive and I also agree NASCAR has shown incongruity with the penalties. I also agree with those who have said NASCAR is not a court of Law and should not have to determine intent. Did Carl secretly plot to win the million dollars by having an engine that was slightly more than one tenth of an inch out fo spec. I doubt it. Should he have insured he was in spec. I believe in the concept of due diligence. I have also met Carl Long some years back, and while the statement may be true that ” I saw in one article he estimated he was making about $100,000 a year” Well here is where the rubber meets the road. A functional Sprint Cup vehicle is 200K baseline to build. Many of you have stated that you barely remember Carl or hardly see him. Well when you do most of the time its a bare car. No offense to Carl, but go back about 7 years ago, when NASACAR was barely fielding 43 cars, guys like Carl would come in run a lap in a race and park and carry home enough money to pay the crew, tire and fuel costs and travel. It takes alot of money to run a car. Now that being said, let me also remind you all my friends, that the fines are held until the end of the season. If the person fined stays out of trouble, then that money comes back to them. Lets put that aside for the moment. We have mentioned Robby Gordon and the fine he received for a part that was incorrectly marked. Although I am not a fan of Robby Gordon, I also felt his team had done due dilligence. The part was marked correctly, why am I being punished at 150K. I find that penalty harsh considering in 2007 at the first race in Canada, Robby BLATANTLY IGNORED being black flagged in the last lap of the race because he refused to move to the spot NASCAR placed him at, then when the race restarted immediately wrecked the leader, and went on. Robby’s penalty. He was sat out ONE race. Lets look at that again. On one hand Robby receives a part from the manufacturer that was incorrectly identified and was ultimately fined 150K. On the other hand, Robby blantantly gives the finger to NASCAR, ignores a direct order from Mike Helton to park his car, wrecks a race leader and gets sat out of one race, NO FINE. So you may all say what you will, but yes there is a HUGE disparity in how teams are punished. Carl Edwards and the 99 were fined, as has been mentioned for the oil pan cover. Remember also they were fined at the 2007 Dover race(which they had won) for the car being too low. Now NASCAR adn about 60 million people saw the 99 take a hard lick from behind, but thanks to his crew and Carl’s talent, they still managed to win with a damaged car. BUT WAIT NASCAR takes away the victory and fine the team for the car being more than a half inch too low? WTF did you NOT see his car hit? That being the case, NASCAR should inspect 30 cars after Talledega. You can make millions in fines from that race! Daytona? All but 5 or 6 car teams will fail that inspection. Ok yes I am becoming facitious here. The truth is Nascar could have inspected Carl’s car and said, Carl, man we are sorry but you fail inspection and here is why. We have to disqualify you. That is punishment enough for any team owner. Especially when you are a small operation. Put it all together and drive out to somewhere only to be turned down and sent home before even qualifying. I myself have watch several times where hefty penalties are levied one week, then next week everyone is sternly warned and then released. All in all in the final analysis, Carl Long broke a rule. There is no denying that. Does he deserve punsihment? Taking the “intent” argument out, yes he does. Does NASCAR have a Rule book? Yes. Does it have a list of punishments for those rules? No. It is at the whim of who is at the hearing at the time and if they have a wild hair that day or not. Is it fair? Everyone will have a different answer. Since NASCAR is a privately owned and operated company they can set the rules as they see fit. We as fans and customers can only show our displeasure simply by not attending these events and by politely expressing our thoughts on the business. WE are the customer and without us, thereis no NASCAR. Journo, I appreciate you writing this article, on what happened to Carl. However your article is a putrid example of yellow journalism, in its bashing a man who expressed how he felt. Allow me to remind you my friend that many of the drivers when fined or chastised for their behavior had less than untoward things to say about NASCARs ruling. A few hours ago Tony Stewart won his first race as driver owner. Tony is extremely vocal about his feelings on certain issues and was at times quiet beligerent about those feelings. Yet this same man whom you may or may not condem for his feelings, handed over a million dollars to Kyle Petty’s Victory Junction Gang. A real bastard isnt he? Perhaps you should consider tempering your words, with a little more eloquence before you put them to paper so to speak.
on Jun 7th, 2009 at 11:24 pm
Henry – Well, I doubt you will come back to this thread but if you do this needs addressing – “Oh yes, and BTW, Nascar engines are not üsed cars, they are speced and “papered” , even the ones used in LMS and Limited Sportman so don’t be comparing them to üsed cars.”
Did I make a comparison?
Far from it in fact what was said is the direct opposite. “As much as you might like to to be this isn’t a car dealer where your protected under a warranty or the so-called Lemon Laws.”
So henry… where’s your so-called comparison?
P.S. What I’m supposed to be impressed by others that your link to and agree with you?
Everyone has an opinion, and has a right to that opinion. What they don’t have a right to do is make-up stuff from whole cloth as you have done on occasion – i.e. Long “unknowingly (most likely) used an incorrect engine” and ““They just wanted Carl gone” – you have ZERO ability to know either statement is fact.
As for your “history in the sport, so…. My first attendance at a NASCAR event was the ‘64 Daytona 500, and remember well the early days of Benny Parsons and teammate Danny Byrd running #’s 08 and 09 1959 Edsels at the now defunct Mt. Clemons race track in Michigan.
What does that mean? Nothing, not anything more than yours both historys are unrelated to todays issue.
on Jun 7th, 2009 at 11:40 pm
Dee Dee – I have one question for you.
You’ve stated a lot of teams and drivers have given support during the current controversy, and I have little doubt many have.
But, I’ve been taught actions speak louder than words and frankly other than B. Vickers donating 5K and with only $11,918.75 showing on your “tote-board” as I write this I fail to see much action.
That said, if in fact Carl went into the appeals board with the idea of a rule change that places some amount responsibility on an engine builder vice his customer three cheers for him and you.
on Jun 8th, 2009 at 6:42 am
Rod: We’ve pretty much addressed everything you commented on in our previous comments, so I’m not going to bother with that. But I did want to know where the Tony Stewart line comes in? We never said a word about Tony in this post or any other. We’ve certainly never “condemned” him for anything. Talk about going off on a tangent…
on Jun 8th, 2009 at 8:13 am
My $0.05 (adjusted for inflation) about penalty discrepencies and “enhancing the show” comments: Every sport does it. Every ref/ump makes judgment calls. And as far as trying to make the show more enjoyable for fans, what about changing strike zones or juicing the ball for more HRs in baseball?
on Jun 9th, 2009 at 12:21 am
Marc ~ Is there another site besides Carl-Long.com that has on-going donations? Carl-Long.com has a $5k donation from David Reutimann, but I find nothing from Vickers. The Carl-Long.com site is up to $13,205.48. If there is another site (where the Vickers $5K donation is) that is up to $11,918.75, that puts him to just over $25k raised.
About fines… up until a couple of years ago the money went toward the winnings that they passed out at they end of the year banquet, did they not? Don’t they put all the fine money to Nascar Charities now? Will someone please clarify that for me? Not that I feel the amount of the fine is justified, IMHO I DO NOT, but I also do not think Nascar “pockets” (as implied and even our right stated on some sites) fine money.
To most of the posters here ~ I do not post often at discussion sites as so many are just name calling rants, but I found most comments here to be well thought out and for the most part an intelligent debate. Bravo!
on Jun 9th, 2009 at 6:15 am
Amber: Yes NASCAR does now give all the money collected from fines to the NASCAR Foundation.
on Jun 9th, 2009 at 7:48 am
Just and odd theory here. After reading DeeDee’s posts this kind of popped into my mind. When they were at the race track and after they have paid all of their entry fees NASCAR decides to change the guaranteed money and short them $21,000 from what was on the entry form. I can imagine there was some virulent complaining done towards NASCAR. Now with all of the media and outside people in the garage for the all-star event maybe NASCAR was embarrassed. With it being NASCAR’s game, what better way to prove that point than to drop the hammer on them for some bs rule violation. If that is the amount he was over then it is bs, like someone posted earlier, that amount can be changed by how many decimals you use for pi. Where is the engine now? If you have to have a drug test verified by a second party why not the engine? NASCAR takes it, calls it illegal and it is probably at the bottom of Lake Norman. Just throwing that one out there. As for Robin Miller in one of my earlier posts, I know he is a blowhard who hates NASCAR with a passion but usually if you filter out all of his biased adjectives the facts are pretty close.
on Jun 9th, 2009 at 11:24 am
TC, do you wear lipstick or vaseline when you kiss NASCAR’s a**? You seem to think Robbie Gordon not knowing about his bumper is okay, and Carl Long not knowing about his over-sized engine is not. To me the same logic applies to Robbie Gordon. He bought the bumper so he should have know, and checked it out also…..Although, I don’t believe either guy could have known, and there is NO WAY Nascar would apply the same penalty to the big names in Nascar, so YES they are picking on the little guy. Your disclaimer at the top says to leave comments that spark debate, but obvious are narrow minded and stupid.
on Jun 9th, 2009 at 11:40 am
P.H.: So I’m not allowed to agree with a decision made by NASCAR? Does that mean you are a NASCAR hater because you disagree? Or, does that mean you are kissing Carl Long’s ass because you agree with him? I don’t kiss NASCAR’s ass, drink their kool aid, or anything else. If you look through the comments I showed plenty of cases where we’ve disagreed with them.
I never said I thought Robby Gordon not knowing about his bumper was okay. What I did say was that he got penalized, and there was absolutely no way for him to know the part was illegal, because it came from the manufacturer and had the same part number. Good try though.
And there is no proof that NASCAR penalizes the little guys more then the big guys, and there is no proof that NASCAR wants Carl or the little guys out, so your argument holds no water. Throughout this whole debate, people keep saying that, and yet not one person has offered a single shred of real evidence that proves that.
And I don’t know what you are trying to say with your last sentence, as you left out a few words and it makes no sense…
on Jun 9th, 2009 at 5:45 pm
Amber – The Vickers donation was very publicly announced on several MSM outlets, do a search you will probably come up with a source. I would think the amount posted at Carl’s site includes the Vickers donation but you would have to contact him for verification.
In answer to your other query, yes all NASCAR fines are now given to charity as of the 2008 season.
on Jun 9th, 2009 at 5:55 pm
KR – “I can imagine there was some virulent complaining done towards NASCAR. Now with all of the media and outside people in the garage for the all-star event maybe NASCAR was embarrassed.
And with all the media attention one would think Dee Dee’s accusation would have been noted and published by someone, somewhere, to my knowledge it hasn’t been.
That’s not to say she’s not being truthful just that her being so close to the situation and the only source of the accusation it has to be taken with a grain of salt.
on Jun 9th, 2009 at 6:01 pm
P.H – “TC, do you wear lipstick or vaseline when you kiss NASCAR’s a**? You seem to think Robbie Gordon not knowing about his bumper is okay, and Carl Long not knowing about his over-sized engine is not.”
“Nice” repartee you have there P.H., it’s pretty obvious with a thread this long someone would start flinging poo around.
Congrats… you win the bobby prize as the first such example.
on Jun 10th, 2009 at 8:56 am
I remember Larry Mac talking about an incident when he complained about something NASCAR did you him when he was a crew chief. Bill Jr. himself asked him if he enjoyed living in his big house on the lake he got from working in NASCAR. Larry said he took that as “If you want to keep that big house you need to shut up”, same type situation.
on Jun 10th, 2009 at 2:39 pm
KR, your anecdote means exactly what?
Actually nothing, but nice try defending something you can’t possibly know as fact.
on Jun 11th, 2009 at 7:00 am
marc-Never said it was fact just a theory. The story means NASCAR will always remind you who’s game it is and have done it in the past to some very high profile people. Some have learned the lesson quickly some have not and have to be reminded. Just had a thought that maybe that is what this whole deal was about and honestly I would be more comfortable with it if it was the case.